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ADA require paperwork!!

The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

  
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Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Tue Sep 24, '13 9:12pm PST 
Cooper, of course the printing of the certificate is simple! So is printing a diploma from Harvard University, so why even have college if people can just go to Kinkos and print out their own diploma? In fact, it's really easy to get fake IDs like driver's licenses; should we simply stop requiring driver's education and driver's exam before being issued a driver's license? They are so simple to fake!

What's not simple is training a dog up to ADI standards. I don't care what sort of certifying organization there is; I'm very open to suggestions. My point is simply you shouldn't be able to have a well-behaved pet, declare it a SDIT one week, declare it a SD one week later, and have full access rights. Which is absolutely legal under current laws; it takes less than a week to train tasks and that's all that's required.

Sure certification wouldn't eliminate all fakers, but if people realize they have to get their dog certified to a certain standard before being a SD, lots of well-intentioned people like the person described above will be less likely to bring an unready dog in public as an SD.

Of course there will be no solution that is 100% effective, but does that mean if a solution is 95% effective it shouldn't be considered because it's 5% ineffective?

And to those who say "people who are going to break the law will break the law regardless of barriers in their way,"

A. That's simply not true. Numerous studies have shown that this is false. Sure, some will willfully defy the law, but in general introducing a barrier to an activity deters many people from doing it.

B. Certification would also screen people who are NOT FAKERS who truly are disabled, who truly could benefit from a SD, who think their dog is a true SD when it simply has not undergone proper training. These people are not lawbreakers. If there were a very accessible way to get certification, people would realize the extent of training involved in training a SD to SD standards and, as they are not lawbreakers, would be less likely to pass their dog off as an SD.

In this vein, I would imagine these certification centers would provide support and direction to this last class of people: people who are truly disabled and would truly benefit from a SD but have nobody to turn to and no help at all. Certification centers could refer potential SD users to reputable trainers, and help them avoid SD scams that are becoming increasingly common BECAUSE of the lack of certification (people are paying thousands of dollars for a SD who isn't properly trained; because there are no certification standards, programs are getting away with this).

So all at once, you would reduce the number of fakers and support the people with disabilities who are trying to train their own SD. It's a clear choice to me.
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SIR AILBE,- Service Dog

Born To Serve- The Damsel In- Distress
 
 
Barked: Tue Sep 24, '13 10:29pm PST 
I chose certification for Shadow and I will also have Ailbe certified. The certification to me shows all the hard work and years I put into the training of my service dog. I see it as a way to say he graduated from a pet to a service dog after so many years of training.

My training has always been based on the ADI standards. Shadow went to an ADI owner training program, but didn't take the schools final exam. He did take the ADI PAT with the program tester. Shadow then took certification from a local program that does Outreach Certification with highly qualified Evaluators. This program was going thru ADI to become a member, but the ADI turned down their Outreach Certification. This would have really helped the Dept of Veterans Affairs Service Dog program on having more qualified teams. The Dept of Veterans Affairs approved of this certification program. So, Shadow has been receiving free medical care and also got his new harness a couple years ago. Because of all the paperwork trail I have with this program they have authorized Ailbe to be certified with them (grandfathered in). We'll travel out of State next Spring to take the test. Then next Summer I'll become a Virginia Evaluator and will certify teams in Central Virginia...

So, don't go slamming people who actually take certification tests because its a personal choice even thou not required by law. At least they take a very tough test to prove they have the training and requirements of being a good service dog VS paying or getting something free online by just filling out paperwork.

Ellen and Ailbe
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Polly

Lolly girl
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 3:17pm PST 
I agree with Nova...something has to be changed, I was in the store a couple of days ago and this older women, about 75? and her daughter about 50, were shopping and the older women had a small dog with a hearing dog vest on it.
I am always very leery about other SD's, so I kept my distance. Then this dog saw Polly and I it went crazy..trying to run at us on the tile floor, so he just ran in place, growing, barking, pulling on the leash.

Polly looks at me like what the heck and Polly stays quite and focused..Then too make things worse, it happened three more times, we kept running into them on different aisles, the second time the daughter smiled and me..I did not give her a very nice look and I shock my head, the third time she made the dog be quite. And the older women did nothing at all.

I saw the produce manager walking around looking and I told him that it was not my SD making all the noise, he seemed to know exactly who I was talking about. The rest of the time I was shopping I had my son's girlfriend walk ahead of us and check each aisle.
Now I don't know if it was a faker or not, but if it wasn't it needed to go back into training or washout.
frown Next time I am in the store I will be given the manager the ADA card and let him know that these people can be removed. jeez shrug
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Lucy Ribeiro

1300329
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 8:31pm PST 
Yes I did all the exams and paid to get them done on my dog. Now am I required by law to do those exams no I am not in fact I could have just followed the current laws never trained my dog and just said oh she is a SD. However taking the exams and basic training is a great stepping stone for any dog that is going to be traveling into public areas.

I hear to many stories of SDiT or SD people bring into stores that may and or may not be SD (I am not here to fight that).They enter in and the dog is not basically trained. So the dog runs a rucos barks howls claws at everything jumps on people and the handlers just smile. I educate the owners of the businesses because these dogs can be removed regardless of certified or not. Miss behavinf or threatening and scaring other patrons is not allowed and the ADA states those dogs can be removed but services must continue to be given to handler once the dog has been removed.

Regardless I have spoken to tons of other handlers and they are about 90% in aggreement with me that some form of paperwork should be required it may not knock out 100% of all fakers but it will atleast stop them a little and it will empower business owners more than they already are. Business owners now are terrified to ask anything because people know or think better yet they cant ask anything and then begin screaming at the security guard or owner and scare them to letting them through.

Now where or how should they require paperwork I would believe make the ADA have to one a nominal fee for the paperwork for one. Number two have a form to fill out by a licensed doctor or psychiatrist with there license number on it and the knowledge that if its fake the doctors licensed can be suspended or cancelled this will weed out the people paying a doctor off for the signiture. Now yes before you comment people can fake that I do in fact understand and yes they probably will.

As NOVA said it wont be a 100% garuantee fix but if something is 50% or more or less it will be better than it is right now. I personally feel I am discriminated more as a Disabled person with a SD than if they required paperwork to get in. I mean I have been physically assualted grabbed screamed at. Someone grabbed my SD and phsycially tried to pull her outside there business. Someting has to be changed.
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Cooper

microscopic mutt
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 8:42pm PST 
Nova wrote:

And to those who say "people who are going to break the law will break the law regardless of barriers in their way,"

That would actually be about the last thing on my mind. What I wonder about is the thought of anyone who would spend their time and energy fantasizing about creating new barriers for the disabled. Personally I find that more than a little creepy - kind of like stealing a wheelchair, or kicking a crutch out from under someone who's using it.

It's a moot point, however. Unless the entire civil rights division of the DOJ burns to the ground and comes back to life in a VERY different form, they simply ARE NOT going to go into the business of regulating dog training and behavior. big grin So fantasize away. It's not going to make one iota of difference anyway.

blue dog

Edited by author Wed Oct 23, '13 3:05pm PST

Approved by forums moderator
Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 9:27pm PST 
Wow. Just wow. I don't know what to say.

Because I am of the opinion that requiring certification would actually support real SD teams, you find it creepy that I am spending time creating barriers for people with disabilities??

You know what's a barrier for people with disabilities? It's having an untrained dog attack your SD. It's having access challenges because the last five "SDs" that came into the store misbehaved. Wanting to get a SD and do things the right way but having nowhere to turn, nobody other than an anonymous message board to go to for support.

If you have actually read what I wrote on the subject, you would know that one absolute prerequisite to any certification requirement would be that it is free and very easily accessible, so I really don't know where you think these barriers are coming from.

C'mon, Cooper, we're both on the same side here! Just because we disagree on how best to support SD teams doesn't mean you have to completely mischaracterize my message, take a quote out of context, and the proceed to call me creepy and say I spend my time thinking of how to create barriers for PWD...
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Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 9:33pm PST 
And, for the record, the quote you took out of context was in direct response to an earlier poster who said that people would continue to fake even if the law was put into place. I'm not sure why you referred to it if it was irrelevant to you.

Cooper, I'm going to be generous and assume you're having a bad day.
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Lucy Ribeiro

1300329
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 9:41pm PST 
Cooper has there version of a point of view they beliieve in. Now I am stopping responding to Coopers posts only because everything I say is taken out of context and then then blurred back in a definate negative way.

Anyone else like NOva and the others who have constructive criticism are welcomed. Keep it friendly and informative is what I always say. I mean like Nova said earlier because of the 4 or however SD's that came in went berserk and misbehaved I am getting ridiculously scrutinized because those who came before were freaking misbehaving and raising a roucus. Frankly I dont see that it would get worse if they started requiring paperwork. I get more scrutinized now than anything else..
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Nare

Woo-woo- whineybutt
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 26, '13 1:15am PST 
So.. what you're saying is.. to have a service dog you should pay a fee to get some special piece of paper, then have your doctor sign it with their license number.
Well I can make up any ole name or license number I want.

I've worked in a grocery store before, do you know how inconvenient it would be to ask every SD team for their paperwork, then to grab my manager to call and validate it (store workers aren't allowed to call out on company phones, and we arent allowed to use our cells)? And even then, who would validate it.. The doctor ? The ADA ? Either way you're asking for a store manager to sit on hold for a long time, or maybe not even reach whoever they are trying to reach.

I've seen Service Dogs acting horribly, but all you can do is cross your fingers and hope they leave quickly. My old manager wouldn't touch 'em. We had a old, old SD team come in and the dog took a pee right in the middle of the food isle. Everything was crazy hectic, with tons of costumers in my managers face demanding we kick the team out, he wouldn't touch it though. Told us to clean it up FAST and try to help them get out of the store quick and offer the to take the dog out to finish going potty.

your intentions are good, it is understandable to be frustrated.. but this plan just won't work. It is too much time, money and resources for all parties.

Not to mention a piece of paper cannot assess your dog's temperament or how they will react in any given situation..

Fakers are frustrating.. I get it. but it is something you kind of got to live with, you know ? I personally think people need to take a test to have kids or be considered an adult, but it just isn't realistic.
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 26, '13 4:44am PST 
I don't have a SD, but I sure see problems having to get one certified. It is all well and good to offer "free" certification, but who is going to do it and keep all the necessary records for free??? And, there is going to have to be a central location to keep all these records...how is that going to be operated for free?
And, what happens to all who live in the remote areas? I am in NH, we have to travel more than two hours to just find a trainer... you are going to expect anyone wanting to use a SD to do this kind of travel??? And, who is going to pay for that travel??
Years ago I tried to certify my therapy dogs thru Delta. In order to be tested I would have to travel FOUR hours one way, and it would require two trips to be certified. How many people using a SD are going to be able to do this type of travel???
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