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Trying Again to Get this Raw Diet Figured Out

This is a dedicated place for all of your questions and answers about Raw Diets. There are also some really cool groups like "Raw Fed" on the topic you can join. This forum is for people who already know they like the raw diet or sincerely want to learn more. Please remember that you are receiving advice from peers and not professionals. If you have specific health-related questions about your dog's diet, please contact your vet!

  
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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 8, '13 8:00am PST 
wave

Last month I had to make the move out of my apartment with Cobain, Rigby, and SO back into my parents home.
Trying to keep on the bright side of things....we now have a BIG freezer with lots of space for raw food!

Surprisingly, I have been able to get my mother on board with this as with the 4 dogs our bag of dog food ends up lasting 19 days, at $1.60/lbs.
I've found a raw supplier very close by that sells a product called "protein fusion" for the same $1.60/lbs price.

Essentially, this product is a ground brick that combines chicken, beef, beef organ, fish, and egg. While personally, I'd prefer to use whole meats, I've got 2 dogs that I cannot trust to eat whole bones properly, and unfortunately this is just what fits the budget right now.


I'm wondering if this would be adequate for the primary meal source? All 4 dogs are very active getting at least a 1-2 hour run off leash in the woods per day as we hike. On top of numerous bouts of fetch, and playing in the yard (as well as agility practice for 3 of them). I intend on adding some whole meats - chicken necks, beef ribs etc. to the dogs I can trust on a weekly basis.

What I'm most unsure about is the mixing of the meat sources and if this would be alright. As far as I know, none of these meats have caused an issue in raw form with my dogs before (although chicken wreaks havoc on Cobain when it's a kibble)

Another product I've found is bags of ground chicken and bone - would have to supplement some organ. It is significantly cheaper but not as "convenient" as it comes in 5lbs bags, and my mother believes that too much chicken will make them gassy. shrug

It's difficult to work an ideal diet in on the budget I am given and when I will not be the only one responsible for feeding. So basically it needs to be as painless and straightforward as possible for them shrug But I would like to get them off kibble and, permitting this will be adequate, this seems to be a decent substitute.

Any words of wisdom here?
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 8, '13 10:49am PST 
Don't tell your parents but since kibble hasn't much water in it you feed a lot less of it than you would raw. Max might eat about 150 grams of kibble a day but needs about 300 grams of raw food a day for instance.

Ask about the percentages of the meats used and is the raw AAFCO compliant and see if there is an analysis of the nutrients in the raw mix. You might be looking for about 30% ground chicken with bone, 5% livers, 5% kidney/spleen/brain/thyroid, 10% fatty fish - not tilapia/whitefish/catfish, 5% egg at the most and the rest be beef.

My dogs generally get a mix like this one, just whole bits. A day's meal might be a bit of bony chicken or lamb, bit of pork or beef kidney and liver and the rest pork, beef, ostrich or lamb. It is fine and most raw fed dogs eat like that most of the time.

If you use the ground bony chicken then you would use it for about 30% of the food with 10% assorted liver and other organ and the rest fatty fish, red meat and a little egg.

Chicken is really bony. Too much bone means the dog is getting too much calcium and phosphorus and calcium in particular binds zinc and other minerals which can badly mess up skin health at the very least.
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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 8, '13 4:42pm PST 
Still waiting on a response from the supplier.

I worked it out and they wouldn't actually be fed too much more on the raw. Cobain and Rigby currently eat about 250g of kibble per day (it's not a very good kibble), and would be eating 250-350g of raw.
Oz and Ruby would be more along the lines of 180-200g.
So around 1kg per day give or take.

There's also frozen chicken carcass, which works out to 0.50 per pound that I'm going to ask about as well.

Likely going to take a pass on the ground just because of the probably high bone content.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Wed Oct 9, '13 7:04am PST 
The chicken carcass would likely be higher in bone than the mixed grind. If it is whole body then it would be about 30% bone, if it is the back and ribs more like 50-75% bone depending on how close the meat was scraped off. And of course an all chicken diet is a very poor one. Unless you are feeding pastured whole prey chicken with all the guts and blood it would need minerals and vitamins and omega 3 fatty acids added. At $.50 a pound it would be a good base to add organs and meats to though. You could pack up daily bins of meat, bony grind and organ and divide among the dogs. That would be very easy to do.

Guess waiting on the vendor to let you know what is what is going on right now. If the mixed grind is too high in bone you could add more red meat to it to balance it better and pack in daily bins to divide between the dogs. The grinds I get are in tubes, I defrost a couple hours and cut up the still hard frozen tube into sections about the right size. Works great.
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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 10, '13 9:35am PST 
Here's the response I got:
"No beef organ.
Ratios vary. Whole chickens are used so those are proportional, meat to bone, however chicken frames are also used.

Word of advice from a long time raw feeder…
Don't get hung up on ratios and balance. I recommend feeding single protein source to start… observe. Slowly add another source… observe.

Adding everything in all at once is a mistake in my opinion, but completely up to you.

Also look at Feedsentials as a supplement to fill in "nutritional gaps".

I would start with raw, ground chicken and bone and go from there. While I will make less money off of you, it is the best place to start (and cheapest)."

I'm thinking what I will do, permitting it sounds "right" of course, is purchase the ground chicken and supplement it with extra meat and organ if necessary. I'll also purchase the frozen chicken carcasses that I mentioned previously on occasion for the dogs that can be trusted with whole bone. And of course fill them with meat and organ as well.

*Crossing fingers* that this will be adequate, and that none of the dogs have an issue with chicken
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 10, '13 1:50pm PST 
Feedsentials does sound interesting. Carob and sunflower seeds would add a lot of potassium, manganese and magnesium to the diet for starters. I'd want a complete analysis but that is me.

Sounds like a good plan. I don't think anybody actually measures out and feeds 5% of this and 10% of that, it is just to keep reminding us to feed that liver but not too much, remember other organ is important as well and feed just a little bone. Dogsters have had to go to chicken only for various reasons and did notice a return of greasy coat, smelly breath and dirty teeth so it definitely is important to get that red meat in and limit bone. One dogster couldn't find other organs and was so concerned about the change in the dogs' conditions that the dogs were put back on kibble. Don't remember offhand dogs that were poorly because they didn't eat any liver though.
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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 15, '13 4:37pm PST 
So we took the plunge on the box of ground chicken.
I know it's not entirely ideal, but I feel it's better than the crap kibble they were previously getting. And we were out of food entirely, so I figured it was now or never.

I've been spending the afternoon portioning it into 100g "chunks" so we can do separate meals to start.
It works out pretty close to 300g for the 2 big ones and 200g for the 2 small ones. I may have to shave a bit off of Oz's second meal of the day or find another source for that.

I plan to mix it with beef liver and another organ source each morning.
And ideally I'd like to do a "whole" meal once per week. Or at least a good RMB once per week (thinking beef ribs maybe?).
Additionally, I'd like to add some canned mackerel or sardine in. - What would that count as in terms of meats? Is it safe to add daily?

Also, what's the verdict on feeding frozen foods? I was told that ground isn't good because it doesn't help the teeth or give them the primal "ripping" action. If fed frozen would this simulate that at all? Or if not, is it at the very least safe to feed from frozen? I don't see the family being too fond of handling slimy raw chicken wink

I apologize for failing at my own research, but the internet here isn't very great (rural areas are awesome until you want to research or find cheap suppliers of meat laugh out loud)
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 22, '13 3:01am PST 
Feeding raw grind is fine as long as they don't mind eating it that way. It's especially good in warm weather. I feed all sorts of stuff frozen including RMBs and don't have any issues; I figure artic wolves and foxes eat their meat rock solid so why not dogs too?

I really don't know if that will clean teeth though. Either get some recreational bones from the butcher (lamb shank, neck, flaps, pork shoulder, neck, beef rib rack) once a week, or clean the teeth. Once they start chewing on raw grind it comes apart fast.

Fish count mainly as meat, at least small fish do as the bone and organ content is pretty miniscule.

Edited by author Tue Oct 22, '13 3:08am PST

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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 24, '13 6:03pm PST 
Thanks!
I'm glad that the smaller fish are considered "meat" as I think we're a bit high still in the bone ratio, so that will help to thin it out a bit.
I bought some chicken backs a few days ago for the whole bone and teeth cleaning. Very cautiously fed it to 3 of them (not Oz)and they all did very well with it. Though Rigby seems to think she should eat hers on the carpet naughty
(Oz not only is the one I'd be concerned about, but also decided to get into our pumpkin patch and ate a ton of rotting pumpkin which made him sick and I didn't want to push it further that day).

We're finishing up week 2 of the raw diet now, and I've gotta say, the dogs are loving it! Even the food aggression issues seem to be subsiding now that they're getting fed a bit more.

I found out we finally have an Asian market in my area, so I hope to check it out sometime next week. Maybe some chicken feet or something cool.


Cobain is losing his "kibble" coat, and looks pretty bad right now, hopefully he looks better before the show this weekend red facered face

Another cool thing I found is that the way I portion the ground, it fits perfectly into a muffin tin. Collectively, 12 portions per day are used, which is exactly what the tin fits. It makes things SO easy!
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 24, '13 10:40pm PST 
Chicken feet are excellent, not really bone per-se but a great source of glucosamine, and if you find pig trotters at the asian market I'd try these for a weekly tooth clean. They might even be okay for Oz as they are pretty much impossible to gulp, they take hours to get into properly.
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