GO!

Not human grade meat

This is the place to share your best homemade dog food and treat recipes with each other! Remember to use caution if your pet has allergies and to make any diet changes gradually so that your dog's stomach can adjust to the new foods you are introducing.

  
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jan 4, '13 3:14pm PST 
Well here is a recipe for you. I just put in the cheap veggies around here and supplements I have used. A combination of bone meal and egg shell plus the meats comes up with a good balance of calcium to phosphorus. It comes out a bit low in riboflavin for 38 pound Max's 600 calories a day. Yeast is rich in that if your dogs can use it or just use a multi B for Bella, it is suggested to use that for kidney dogs anyway. This is high in fat as I put in duck with skin and you KNOW how fatty duck skin is!
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/2742738/2
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Kloppers

1229827
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 5, '13 5:48am PST 
Thanks Maxwell..I received the analysis from the butcher on all the meats and read up on homecooking. It is my understanding that you can feed ground bone in meat even if I cook it? In this case I wouldn't have to worry about calcium because it would be in the bone, right? The meats with bone are 10-15% bone and the organ mix is made up of beef heart, green tripe, liver, kidney, and tongue.

It would simple enough to add a Multi B to Bella's supplements.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 5, '13 9:13am PST 
Feeding Bella meat with ground bone might put her over the amount of phosphorus she needs. When I made up that recipe I used half egg shell and half bone meal to get the perfect amounts of calcium and phosphorus. Perhaps give her half meat with bone and half without and give some eggshell for that portion of meat? Well you cannot give her that organ mix as it is beef, too bad. It sounds like great stuff, a lot like what Max gets.
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Kloppers

1229827
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 5, '13 9:35am PST 
thanks again. So since Bella can not eat beef, lamb, chicken...she also can not eat their organs? I had been wondering about that, I haven't seen any venison or rabbit organs. I just hope to goodness she can eat rabbit or venison, she has never had them.

Where can I find out what percentage of what Bella needs? I was trying to use nutritiondata again, I tried to enter the amount of venison in grams Bella would eat to get an idea of what percentages it would offer her..it wanted me to enter all that. I understand the calcium to phosphorus ratios but I guess not the required amount needed for a particular dog. I know we want to keep her below 30mg per lb, and if I looked at it right the recipe you provided gave her about 12mg per lb, right?
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 5, '13 3:29pm PST 
I gave Sassy 11 mg phosphorus per pound which is about half the requirement - that was extremely low. Phosphorus is an essential nutrient and you don't want to reduce it too far. 38 pound Max gets 800mg which comes to 21mg per pound and is his requirement. The recipe gives Max about 800mg phosphorus per 600 calories.

I estimated the dogs needed 20 calories per pound, don't know where I found that handy starting point. It is probably low for most dogs but when switching to new food less is better anyway. Then I fed more or less depending on body condition. Sassy ended up needing 1000 calories or 25 calories per pound and Max needs 600 calories or 15 calories per pound. You already know how many calories work for Bella, then the spreadsheet gives you how much phosphorus she needs, work from that. If the calories she needs in the recipe I make provides the amount of calcium and phosphorus she needs then you are good to go. If not use more bony ground and less egg shell for more phosphate or bone free meat and more egg shell for less phosphate. If you want to reduce her phosphorus to less than the NRC requirement all you need to do is feed her bone free ground with 1/2 tsp of egg shell per pound of meat. I know it is more expensive but that might actually be the way to go for her and use the bony grinds for the other dogs.

Very very rough example. If I just gave Max 90% lean hamburger he would need to eat about 12 ounces to get 600 calories. Each once has about 51mg of phosphorus. If I mixed 1/2 tsp of egg shell into that he would get 900 mg of calcium and 620mg of phosphorus which is 78% of his phosphorus requirement. If he needed to watch his phosphorus that would be a logical starting point.

See the raw feeding spreadsheet for how much of what she needs as a healthy dog, it is linked in Sedona's thread.
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Home_Prepared_Food_Recipes/th read/640881

If a dog is allergic to the meat then the organs and bones are likely a bad idea. Oddly some dogs can eat eggs even if they are allergic to chicken but some cannot even eat the egg shell. Some dogs are so reactive to corn that they must eat grass fed meats!

So look for venison, moose, duck or goose liver for her. Since it is such a tiny part of the diet even if it costs the earth it isn't so bad and if pushed to the wall it is possible to use supplements and choose veggies like potato maybe to make up for no liver. I am looking for copper in the liver, pork and chicken liver have quite low copper content. Just looked at ND. Oysters have a lot of copper too. They are real powerhouses of nutrients, you can use them for zinc and vitamins Bs too. Copper is tricky, it is necessary but in very small amounts and too much isn't a good thing.
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Kloppers

1229827
 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 7, '13 5:58am PST 
Maxwell you are very helpful, thank youcheer

I received an email back from our vet. After reading through Bella's medical file and past issues she recommends that we feed Bella a raw diet and not cooked. She said this is from a financial stand point( venison is 4.99lb) as well. She wants me to give Bella atleast 3 wks or more on raw for her to adjust. The previous time on raw, we did not make it a week because our then vet said stop immediately( Bella was vomiting and had diarrhea but was normally otherwise). Although I really liked that vet we did not share ideas on my dogs nutrition.

Although not ideal for the beginning we will use the ground meat from the butcher. Once I become more familiar and confident I will switch to the prey model. It will take some time to teach the dogs to chew...they are all inhalers. Our vet is not as familiar with raw as homecooking, so she suggested doing some research and we will discuss it at Bella's appt ( she is also going to research).

Do you supplement as much with the raw as the homecooked? I have already started to save and grind our eggshells. I understand everyone has a different view on this topic, I think I would feel best supplementing some with Bella due to all her health issues.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 7, '13 9:07am PST 
I make sure Max gets mostly red meats and not too much bone. I have to weigh his meals carefully and try not to feed too much organ as he adores the stuff. He gets fish oil, a joint supplement, vitamin E and a bit of zinc as supplements. I gave Sassy eggshell, B vitamins, multimineral+more zinc, fish oil and vitamin E. Difference being I add up his various meats and it always comes out right. I had to weigh Sassy's food meticulously to make them come out right as balancing the amount of plant food to animal food was important to keep the phosphorus content where I wanted it. Raw is easier! I would feel better not cooking ground meat with bone too. As long as there is that 10-15% bone in the diet you don't have to offer the veggies for bulk but you can still do so if you want to feed more BARF style. If you cannot offer organ then you do have to make it up somehow. Kidney dogs should get a bit less of the fat soluble vitamins and some of the minerals but those B vitamins red meat livers have so much of are important for kidney dogs and you probably will need to make up some minerals Max gets from tripe.

Dogs can inhale ground stuff to. A Dogster died doing just that with ground meat. Now I mix ground stuff with some water to make it looser but pressing it around the edge of a pie pan slows Max down too.
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Kloppers

1229827
 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 7, '13 10:24am PST 
We add more liquid to their homecooked topping to prevent their inhaling of their kibble. Our chihuahua is the worst, when they have the topper on they take a lot longer to eat because they lick the liquid out first and very carefully make sure they have licked every last inch. I have also just frozen snacks for them (primal gave us free frozen nuggets), that worked last summer. I could probably hand feed at first if need be...or maybe freeze the meat in smaller balls for the chihuahua. I will have to watch how they eat the first time and see who needs special attention.

I am going to buy a couple lbs this week just to look at it and see if the dogs show interest. I will be doing some more research throughout the week. My butcher also sells shank bones, meaty bones, and knuckle bones..I will have to research those smile I really can't thank you enough Maxwell..I have also been reading like every post in the raw diet forum.
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joey

I'm working on- three toys!
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 12, '13 4:14pm PST 
I will probably make a separate post on this, but I was wondering Maxwell or anyone on here has used the supplement "Balance It" with the addition of a chosen carb and protein and the recipe generated by that site. I am not up to home cooking all of Joey's meals from scratch, and also don't know if I am capable of creating a recipe using Nutritiondata.com. With someone's help before, I created one with turkey, but I would now like to come up with something fairly simple using fish. The Balance It route sounds fairly easy, except that there is not a fish option, and the closest thing, salmon, gets pretty expensive as I'm not willing to use farm raised salmon, only wild salmon.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 12, '13 7:04pm PST 
I saw several fish versions for Carnivore blend and for Potato blend and not going to go through all those carbs as well. Be nice if you could choose the protein then choose the carb source.

Easiest thing would be to pay the $50 to get the meat and all the way you want it.

If you really want to do the work you could put the supplement and your dog's needs into nutritiondata and work with the carb and fish to get the recipe right.
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