Cooked prey model raw, can you give input? Are my dogs safe?

This is the place to share your best homemade dog food and treat recipes with each other! Remember to use caution if your pet has allergies and to make any diet changes gradually so that your dog's stomach can adjust to the new foods you are introducing.

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Fritz

Fritz, cats are- fun when they- run

Barked: Fri Nov 2, '12 8:15pm PST


	I have always heard that cooked bone is dangerous. If you want a cooked diet, why don't you go check in the cooked food forum instead of a raw forum? As Bam Bam pointed out, if you cook prey model raw, you no longer have prey model Raw. It is just some kind of combo cooked meat.

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Rexy

I dig in mud- puddles!

Barked: Fri Nov 2, '12 8:35pm PST


	I might consider feeding pressure cooked bones, not so sure about cooked ones though, even if they are crumbling. I would think that crushed eggshell would be an easier way to go about it. Fritz, this is the cooked food forum. Agree with the others though, that as soon as you cook it, it's no longer "prey model raw".

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Meridian

Proud to be a- kitchen wolf!!!

Barked: Sat Nov 3, '12 7:31pm PST


	First: Raw food is not something you "believe in" or not. It's a choice you decide to make. You're clearly uncomfortable with raw foods for some reason and have decided to process a natural diet with heat, which is your choice to make for your dogs. This does alter and affect nutrients, as well as the rates and quantities of absorption and use by your dog's body. Second: The term "prey model" refers to the practice of looking to a diet of natural prey animals by wolves, wild and feral dogs, and even other canids, and modeling your dog's diet after it. While it may seem that you're only changing one little thing by cooking, this step is removing your chosen diet so far from any 'prey model' that you really need to make adjustments to account for this in order to be providing more than just an adequate diet at best, and a dangerously lacking one, worst case scenario. These considerations go beyond simple nutrition. Eliminating the act of your dogs removing flesh from bone and other integral activities inherent in the 'prey model' approach to feeding means you're taking away an integral part of a natural diet which must be accounted for. I would use the excellent sounding ingredients it sounds like you have available and research how to turn them into a more adequate cooked diet, or, better yet, address the issues you have with feeding raw and see if you can't embrace the fact that it is a safe, viable, healthy way to feed dogs. Organs, indeed, do not need to be fed every day, in fact in my opinion it's preferable to feed larger portions less often than daily, so you're OK there. Your approach to bone is worrisome. You're effectively making your own bonemeal, which isn't bad per se -- likely preferable to commercially available bonemeal -- but you really need to be factoring in the altered state. Bone in its raw state is a matrix of minerals, collagen, and, depending on they type of bone, a fat content contributed by the marrow. Muscle and connective tissue are attached to the bone. In the process of removing the meat and rendering the bones into bonemeal you're transforming the amino acid structure of the collagen, turning it into gelatin. This includes the collagen present in the raw cartilage present at the joints, which is a great source of a few nutrients. When you buy bone meal it's likely been spray-dried forming a shelf-stable powder. Your bone "paste" is probably the same nutrient-wise, the fresh gelatin making a paste-like base for a mineral suspension. While edible raw bone needs only make up 10%-15% of a raw diet, which really isn't much, your bone meal is an entirely different substance than raw bone, and needs to be fed differently. Calcium is largest mineral presence in bone and bonemeal, and an essential nutrient that plays a role in many body functions. It's also something that needs to be present in pretty specific amounts. Too little is bad, so is too much. (Complicating things is that too much can cause the same signs and symptoms of a deficiency.) The ratio of calcium to other nutrients plays a key role in use and absorption -- this is called nutrient synergy -- and it affects more than just calcium. All nutrients are affected by this synergy, which is why a raw diet is nice -- all this is accounted for in a diet modeled on the natural form of food a being is meant to consume, in a dog's case this is big chunks of prey animal. The form of the calcium delivery also affects absorption. By rendering out the minerals naturally bound in the bone tissue, you're actually increasing the bioavailability, which sounds great, but isn't necessarily so, thus the need for calculating the diet to account for the altered state. Sounds like you've got a lot of great resources at your disposal, you just need to do some refiguring.

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Member Since
04/06/2012

Barked: Thu Nov 15, '12 4:02am PST


	well i 1st want to say extremely sorry everyone, i am working on getting back to people in timely manner, being respectful i want to say before i start, after reading through your replies and thinking about it myself i now understand that raw bone is different than cooked so by giving them 10% bone meal I am actually most likely, most definitely, overdosing them with calcium. this has stopped now. hoyt: hey! that was my mistake. we DO cook boar thoroughly! i should have made that clarification! in addition we buy our meats in large quantities and meats are usually always frozen first! boar is always frozen first. i can't say it will always be exactly 2 months or longer, however as we see this is not an issue as boar is being cooked thoroughly! ok yes, respectfully i am aware raw and cooked are different. ok organ info is understood! yes it's interesting i HAVE tried giving them raw chicken wings and such. they DID enjoy this and did sufficiently chew it all up! the problem is this whole "issue" also includes pieces of MY opinions and some days I just don't want a wolf for a dog if any of you would connect with me on that; I don't always like feeding raw food to dogs because my whole philosophy is about trying to steer the dogs away from that whole "wolf carnivore" idea and embracing who they are in THIS generation; that doesn't mean i want to feed them harmful foods. but i will stay away from focusing my post on these types of personal beliefs and such.. just sitting here thinking about this makes me realize this could actually be the way we go about this; some days do the bonemeal and others do the raw bones! On days we are doing raw bones I would wait the sufficient amount of time before giving them their cooked meal. awesome, this is definitely a way to go about this! well thanks for your help, i'd like you to know i avoided going into your last paragraph because really we all have our opinions and beliefs. it's extremely hard to convey to you my whole life philosophy about this issue in words through a computer, but i wanted to leave you with this: just remember life is more than just feeding a creature what they were "designed" to eat when said creature created its whole life, its memories, its literal physical being was created eating the way it was before! like i said really this is more my philosophy on things so it's hard to convey, i believe that foods affect us physically and I have had first-hand experience with this (raw milk anyone?). food creates everything we are (including how we look). we eat and then we go make memories crafted with the nutrition of said food! i don't always feel grains and veggies should be absent from a dog's diet unless of course dog doesn't want to eat! I would like to mention the quote about the baby and bathwater, i really believe it's not so much the grains (unless gmo) that should be removed, more-so the inhumane factory farmed crap that goes into kibble, the artificial colors, dies, meat and bone meal from inhumane literally gross sources! hoyt i'd like to ask that I get back to you on this, because i'd actually like to go into my opinions and feelings on this, but i'd like to save this for another time because i can't get it all out yet! thank you for your help obviously the way you are feeding WORKS for your dogs, and that is all that matters about this, what WORKS for YOUR dogs with their situation! i have to throw in too really quick your quote about "their teeth aren't designed", sometimes life isn't always about having the proper teeth to digest something with! it's OK to eat/subsist/possibly adapt to something that you weren't evolved to eat. ok maybe we can chat about this more in depth and learn from each other, see ya! bam-bam: hey! as trivial as this is i understand what you are saying. this isn't anything to do with "prey" or "raw" . . i will have to refer to it as a cooked diet absent of vegetables or grains, but including cooked bone! There will be some raw bone used for calcium as well! thanks maxwell: wow i want to first say i am extremely sorry! you have been very kind in responding to my previous posts! i am sorry i let those topics go, that is not right to ignore all of you like that. basically she ended up dying and for reasons i would not like to go into right now it made me feel worse to go back and look-up those topics and try and respond! sorry.. Yea I would suggest trying the method, pretty interesting. Only problem is we don't know HOW much to give of said bone! We'd have to get the bones analyzed for calcium content which is making me think maybe I should just stick with raw chicken wings and such for calcium portion of diet! Yes the liquid has calcium in it too, what happens is if you run out of the cooked bone and don't have anymore, the liquid can be poured over meat and the liquid contains the calcium! Pretty cool. Again, with all of this, as I am typing this am realizing because I would probably never be able to get bone analyzed I would never know how much calcium I am feeding my dogs. I could speak with a vet.. What I might find out from either research, speaking with vet, or possibly actually going to get bone analyzed, is that there doesn't need to be a PERFECT tsp amount of bone meal, you can vary it for example per pound of meat 1/2 - 3/4 tsp and as long as I stay in this range I will be fine. Again, I will have to research this issue further . . Ok organs more important variety of meat less important got it! Yes I sense you on the issue of doing something like 3/4 meat 1/4 veggies. It's actually interesting like I've been saying I would like my dogs to eat more types of carbs and such, it was shocking when I did the experiment of placing each type of food in it's own space/bowl and let the dogs choose what they wanted to eat! When I first started out doing this for them I was doing the dogaware cooked diet so I was including a small amount of veggies and grains, and they WERE eating it then. What happened was I tested out serving them veggies, grains, by themselves and I found they never bothered with stuff like that! I will start putting out offerings of carbs everyday here and there and see if this sparks their interest, otherwise we will stick with just meat and bones, table scraps of course! Ok so you would do veggies for stool bulk, I can do that too. Of course bones are what firms up the stool as well, I'm sure you're aware of that. I will look into your resources right away, thank you immensely for linking me all of those! Ok well loose stool might be occurring. One dog had his anal glands emptied and of course it probably came to be this way because of how I was feeding him. Now that he is getting proper bone and such I will keep an eye on their stools! Yes I will keep making it better, that's what we do here well very nice to speak with you thank you again! i will post again when I can you guys are awesome I have been a member of various forums throughout these years and this one is truly a gem See ya guys Thank you

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Bellatrix

Crazy Ball'O Fur

Barked: Thu Nov 15, '12 3:25pm PST


	Sorry I just have to comment on this, I don't mean to offend. To say that you don't want your dog to be a wolf, is denying most of their DNA. Dogs are at the most only .2% separated from the grey wolf, so that's like saying I don't want a hamburger I just want the seeds on top of the bun. The dog you have in your house is essentially a wolf, just with a bit of change in personality and looks, their digestion is virtually untouched seeing as even when people started owning and breeding dogs, they still fed them raw up until about a fifty years ago when feeding a dog unhealthy little triangles of food became the normal.

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Meridian

Proud to be a- kitchen wolf!!!

Barked: Thu Nov 15, '12 7:19pm PST


	If by "the last paragraph" you meant my post, I'm truly sorry you were put off by my initial statement and chose to ignore some solid information on your chosen diet choices. I implore you to go back and give it a chance. I thought I was being respectful enough, and though an obvious questioning of your motives was implied, I addressed your questions and approach factually and without judgement. On one level I do think I understand to an extent your feelings on food, feeding, and a much greater connection to life, wellbeing, and even connections to spirituality, as that is really the root of what a raw diet is to me, too. We're just going about it in different ways -- I am embracing our dog's origins, it seems to me you are trying to transcend them. In the interest of keeping things civil I won't delve further into my opinions on how you're going about that, but I'm really truly honestly interested in your philosophies on the subject if you'd like to share. My main point is that you are choosing to feed a cooked diet, and in order to safely and healthily deliver all the qualities you mentioned in your last post, you must carefully formulate the diet you do choose to feed given that it is flying in the face of the most basic natural diet you could provide.

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Lucille

I am the Sock- Bandit!!!

Barked: Fri Nov 16, '12 7:42am PST


	"they still fed them raw up until about a fifty years ago when feeding a dog unhealthy little triangles of food became the normal." While folks may have tossed their dogs raw meat or a bone occasionally, remember that meat was very dear for most people and dogs mostly got cooked table scraps and boiled bones from the pot. Dogs also ate the trencher (large piece of hard bread) that people served stew on. The availability of quality meat for humans was much lower than it is today, particularly in the UK where hunting was strictly limited to landowners. So in the UK beginning around the 1860s, processed dog biscuits started being served to address poor feeding issues that contained at least some essential vitamins and minerals and significant calcium amounts. These were often broken up and served over meat or cooked scraps or leftover broth, sometimes softened in milk for older/ill dogs. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that kibble is the best thing to feed every dog, but there was a time where dogs were not getting enough calcium etc. in the scraps they were given so those 'biscuits' were seen as an advancement. There are writings from the time by early kennel club members that talk about how their dogs' health, growth and performance improved. That basic idea evolved into kibble manufacture in the US. The problems with kibble really started with mass production in the US, when cheaper ingredients meant higher profits for companies.

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Bellatrix

Crazy Ball'O Fur

Barked: Sat Nov 17, '12 8:42am PST


	Well, the more you know! I was wrong on that fact, though the basic meaning behind it still stands, that dogs are mostly wolves, with a bit of a looks and personality change. Their insides are still mostly the same as a wolf's.

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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn

Barked: Sat Nov 17, '12 8:52pm PST


	Meridian Most wild canines are both scavengers AND predators, but dogs are anatomically classified under the order Carnivora, right beside the Grey Wolf. Dogs are not a separate species, even, but a sub-species of Canis Lupus. Dogs, no matter how different some look on the outside, are more closely related to wolves than coyotes are. This is basic science. Dogs CAN and WILL eat just about anything, but their bodies say "I am 100% a carnivore".

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Kolbe

Where can I run- today?

Barked: Tue Dec 4, '12 8:54am PST


	What Meridian said. More power to you with whatever you're attempting to pursue, but this sounds like severely over-complicating something because you have a personal hangup with the fact that your pet shares 98% of its DNA with a wild carnivore. I'd either feed real raw prey model or find correctly balanced home cooked recipes.

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