GO!

Just and idea (show vs working Border Collies).

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
(Page 1 of 2: Viewing entries 1 to 10)  
Page Links: 1  2  
Calamity- Jane

1139619
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 12:51pm PST 
I was on the (working) Border Collie forum, and I just got to thinking about the divide between working and show lines. It really makes me sad that there is this rift, not just in the Border Collie, but in many breeds.

Anyways...now, I know that some of you are very anti-show, but please hear me out. As some of you may know, I'm interested in getting a Border Collie pup in a few years, not just for working and trailing, but also for conformation show, because I believe that both are important. I was wondering if there could be a way to still have a Border Collie that could compete in conformation, but is also able to seriously work and compete in herding. I want to eventually breed a line that can do both, but is it even plausible?

I brought this one up elsewhere, and got a lot of negative and sarcastic comments on it. I still want to try for it, but maybe I'm just being naive...

Edited by author Fri May 3, '13 1:34pm PST

[notify]
Baby

What'd you say?- I wasn't- listening.
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 2:07pm PST 
There are quite a few conformation border collie breeders that compete in various sports. Go to shows and ask around; see what the breeders do on the side, if their dogs have any titles in sports you're interested in.
[notify]
UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 3:09pm PST 
My dog is 100% working lines and he has a conformation title. In the AKC he'd be laughed out of the ring. In the UKC however, the working dogs are on a much more level playing field with show bred dogs. The UKC actually changed their German Shepherd standard several months back, instructing judges not to award wins to GSDs that don't look capable of performing the jobs they were originally bred to do. Extreme angulation, weak hocks, ect.

Now that's not to say some judges aren't going to ignore that and still always award the wins to show bred GSDs, but I've had judges that actually preferred the working lines. Onyx has won over show GSDs and many judges asked us not to put the dogs in the extreme stack you usually see Shepherds in.

Obviously all of that pertains specifically to GSDs, but point being, yes, you can successfully show a working line dog, just not with every kennel club. I have seen one working Border at a UKC show I went to and that dog titled the weekend we were there.

Or, as Baby said, on the other side of the coin, there are conformation breeders who also work their dogs. If showing is something you really want to do, you'd might have an easier time finding an appropriate dog with a show breeder. I don't know how much working line Border breeders focus on conformation. Many working line GSD breeders have German conformation titles on their dogs (V, SG, ect.), but I don't know how it works with BCs.
[notify]

Calamity- Jane

1139619
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 5:11pm PST 
Thanks smile.

I had heard that the UKC shows were less...oh how do I put it, structured maybe? But, that may be a good thing, as they seem less limited and set in their ways about standards and conformation than the AKC. I think that form follows function, so I'm a little more inclined to get a primarily working dog than a primarily conformation dog. So, the UKC might be the way to go.
[notify]
Nare

Woo-woo- whineybutt
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 5:41pm PST 
I don't think its that the UKC is less structured..
But, more that they care about the dogs more than the money lol.
For example.. in UKC you can do a lot more with mixed breed dogs. They recognize more breeds and breed splits (Japanese Akita and American Akita are not grouped).
[notify]
Calamity- Jane

1139619
 
 
Barked: Fri May 3, '13 6:35pm PST 
Yeah, that was the wrong word. I just wasn't sure how to describe it. shrug
[notify]
Baby

What'd you say?- I wasn't- listening.
 
 
Barked: Sat May 4, '13 10:17am PST 
In my mind:
Form should always be first. If you're planning on doing agility a dog's conformation is a big deal, if the dog isn't put together the right away it's not going to handle the rigor as well.

Even with German Shepherds form comes first, you just have to make sure you're getting the right form wink. Unfortunately that is a breed with a big split on what their conformation should look like between lines. The gravity of that split is not quite as prevalent in most breeds.
[notify]
Dexter *CGC- silver*

If it moves - Herd it!
 
 
Barked: Thu May 9, '13 11:11am PST 
Dexter is 100% working lines and looks a lot different to the show BC's I've seen.

Dexter is tall, very tall... At our OB class there are ten BC's and Dexter is by far the tallest. He is also a lot more agile looking and has a smooth, short coat... He looks a lot different to the KC pedigree BC's I've met but I know that there are a few breeders here, in the UK that breed for both...

I've never seen one up close enough to have a valid opinion but I think it's a great idea... Some show line breeds really annoy me (not the dog's fault of course).... There isn't an ounce of the original breed in them. Like GSD's for example, when I went to Crufts a couple of years ago, some of the GSD's really struggled in their back legs. Their backs were curved and their hind legs were so short. Poor things. I think more breeders should breed for both conformation and work. Some show breeds are becoming a sorry sight, a shadow of their former working glory :o(

I love the idea of having a dog that can do both...

Dexter, although pure bred, would never be allowed to show. I also think one of the hardships are being able to register work lines with the KC. Working lines are bred to work, show lines are bred for the ring... Some of the best working dogs have been bred and developed over years and most working breeders don't give a hoot about KC registration (quite rightly so), so naturally, introducing working lines in to the show lines, could be an obstacle.
[notify]
Dexter *CGC- silver*

If it moves - Herd it!
 
 
Barked: Fri May 10, '13 3:12am PST 
I forgot to add...

BCs bred for both working and showing seem to be becoming a bit more popular in the UK, though... Although, I still stand by what I said before, KC registered working line collies are hard to come by, but truly a sight to behold puppy

I'm helping my friend look for the perfect BC puppy at the moment and it seems to be slowly but surely growing in popularity, especially here in Scotland, that puppies are KC registered and registered with the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society), which is good to see...

My friend an I are going to view puppies tomorrow at a farm about an hour away where the parents are both working and Champion showline BCs... We are going to see the parents out working sheep before we meet the puppies puppy The sire is a nation working champion and the dam is first and foremost for showing, but works sheep too...

I'm rather excited puppy

Still, I think there should be more of these breeders around and good for you that you want to add to the working/show lines. I think more breeders of other breeds need to think this way too.

I hope I'm making sense laugh out loud
[notify]
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Fri May 10, '13 2:19pm PST 
A lot of breeds with splits still have do it all breeders, but here's the difference:

Working dogs can be REALLY different from titling dogs. The subject of vigor, and that can both an emotional vigor and a physical vigor, come into play. So I think if you want a WORKING dog, then that's really where you need to go. Whereas if what you want is a "hobby" dog, then dual breeders may often be best, particularly if in the "pet first" realm. If your dog is a pet first and foremost...the rest being what you "hope" for, but it's not the end of the world, vs some uber bent dog who is eating your walls and staring at the door quivering all day being viewed as the greater disaster....then you should be with someone more dual who has a pet sensibility.

A lot of these debates get so stupid, IMO. I know with GSDs, where I have the most experience, I sometimes hear debates with "working" people who have never worked dogs...I mean WORKED...and or those who say their dogs come from "working lines" when basically, no, they come from sport lines, or what is now simply vestiges of working lines. I had a GSD from working lines...like REAL working lines, papa was a border patrol guard and momma was a working herding bitch. Both had titles too, but they were working dogs. Pogo remains a dog I revere, but I couldn't call him a pet. He didn't like cookies, wouldn't relish a game of fetch, was far from a couch snuggle and while noble and kind, was 100% serious, 100% of the time. Absolutely a dog for me, but he wasn't a pet.

Chester is a lot the same, but his life stinks more. He's a Cocker, working bred, and I had this concept that bred for work would make him be an even better OB dog and so on. But no....what he wants to do is HUNT. He was about seven when I first took him, FIRST took him, to a major woodsy hunting spot. Not with the intent to hunt (I won't), but it is where we ended up, and all of a sudden my dog of many years turned into something entirely different and went into these realms of passion, joy, bravado and, dare I say it, ecstasy.

And that was a downer moment for me, really. Pogo worked out fine. He was working (PPD), and also was a very tending dog so had his kittens to look after and such. But Chester had this soulful sort of desire I couldn't really answer near as much, and it wasn't until I saw it that I faced the rant Trigger often goes on on this forum....what he was stuck with vs what he was bred for (and what made his heart soar), were really different things. I certainly trained, worked a lot with him, we did a lot of things together....but that was not hunting, and that was a BIG difference.

A lot of Lab people I know who do hunt go to dual breeders, so they have a nice pet, and when they want to go out and hunt or work on a title they have the dog they need, but all the other time, which is the overwhelming amount of time they spend, they are very content to be pets. Perhaps they would come up short with a hardcore hunter, but they are a hobbyist dog with a hobbyist hunter, and it works better.

My advice is to always be real. Prioritize what you intend to do....the most important at the top, the least likely at the bottom. Then you will know where you need to go. Don't listen to anyone babbling on about splits. This is about you and your life, what matters to you and what you are a million percent certain you can offer a dog, vs what on your list is an intention or hope, but you can't swear on it. You want the dog to suit you. You want the breeder who produces that dog. End of story.

Edited by author Fri May 10, '13 2:22pm PST

[notify]
  (Page 1 of 2: Viewing entries 1 to 10)  
Page Links: 1  2