If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

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Savannah Blue Belle

A Heart of Gold!
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 12:19pm PST 
wow. thanks again. my education continues.
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 1:14pm PST 
I wonder why minimally these anti mill organizations don't have some "gold seal" system for the internet where breeders can submit their info...like let's say a copy of their contract, health testing records, breed club affiliation, etc.....to earn a decal for their internet site and listing on the anti mill organization's database as breeders approved as not being mills. That would seem to me to be at least something.

I am of the avid opinion that we have tested the "education will make the difference!" waters and that there is more we need to do. Breeders licensing an optimum, but in the meantime I think something such as an approval seal will at least help people discern mill from not.

A lot of the testimonials on that site mention how pleased they were to have gotten the puppy from a nice gentleman farmer shrug One of them mentioned being the 500 dogs kept on three acres guy? Some gentleman!

More Bored- Collies
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 6:59pm PST 
I definitely understand where you're coming from when feeling bad for a pup in these stores/auctions/mills.
Brings me back to the dachshund pup I was on the brink of purchasing....

Double dapple, cross eyed, bad back/hips...I've never felt the need to "save" a dog more than him (except maybe Rig). Thinking about it now, he's probably dead.
I don't know why I tortured myself and stepped into that petstore (knowing they sold puppies), but it still haunts me.

I just wish that there was something that could be done.
And really in the foreseeable future I see puppy mills getting more prominent unfortunately. We live in a very impulsive and self-centred society. And from what I've noticed, it's getting worse, not better.
Even in the supposed age of information, there's so many that are blind to the abuse, neglect and other horrors of a situation like this.

What I meant in my last post was not those who had compassion really. I've met many who feel justified and proud about it. That they still got a "purebred" and not a "dirty shelter mutt" but they still did a good thing. I believe it's more or less to put up a false veil of compassion so they are not judged or criticized for their choices. shrug

As for the seal of approval, that's a great idea if someone could get it to really take off! I feel that something like that may be more persuasive than someone "educating" them. A universal sign of goodness would work wonders I think


Because I'm- Duncan, that's- why

Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 7:27pm PST 
Cobain, I agree with you! Many of those that purchased from pet stores will justify it as a "rescue" in order to rationalize it away. Just to make themselves feel better and look better, though they do know they did their part to perpetuate an evil system of puppy mills.

Tiller, as you know but I will follow up by posting here, I'm fully with you on the concept of breeder licensing. The sticky thing is who gets to make the rules! in an industry that tends to resist any sort of regulation. And then again, I agree that an anti-mill organization offering a "gold seal of approval" could be at least something. So I agree with your own stated end goals, but not with your assessment about how I (or anyone) comes to be a hardliner on buying petstore puppies. As I mentioned, I'm more romantic about breeders than anyone out there, given that in my Utopia (the vision shared with many in animal welfare), there would be NO OTHER SOURCE for dogs, besides responsible breeders. The transformation of the entire world of dogs - the ridding of all the scourges from puppy mills, to the shelter crisis, to indeed most abuse and dog fighting and so forth - all could be accomplished only by finally abolishing all the bad breeders, and there remaining only the responsible breeders, who would be the protectors and champions of their dogs, their progeny, and the species as a whole.blue dog
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 2:23am PST 
I can actually link the past two posts together on this topic. I think S/R on one hand embraces the utopia of good breeders and what an answer to everything they are, and yet at the same time, in a bit of a paradox, would obviously prefer people rescue than support breeders in which there is that answer. And I do think in parts in that frame, they have somewhat contributed to these more current trends of designer breeds and the slew of BYBs and mills they resent, be it from some rescue extremists talking about all the genetic problems of purebreds and "overbred temperaments" (aka mutts live longer and aren't neurotic), rescues themselves often using (and thereby promoting) the same cutesey somethin'Poo mix names, too restrictive adoption policies, or gilding the lily in trying to place a dog with some issues, all of these things contribute to driving people towards the mills and BYBs. Particularly when you end up with some element in rescue that seems to think it is better to shame someone out of considering going to a breeder, rather than embracing that decision enough to educate them on how to do things the right way as an assurance that through such education no harm will come to S/R itself. That's what I think results in what you were talking about, Cobain. They want a breeder puppy but feel guilted (or perhaps even inspired) by those who have rescued, so they'll just kill two birds with one stone and "rescue" a puppy from a bad situation.

Just as an example of how breeders can learn to work this, there was that breeder I put up last week here who stressed that she only bred to support her no kill shelter, and that by buying one of her puppies you would be helping fund a place for displaced dogs! Someone who wants a breeder pup but feels guilty may well be drawn to this "option," however fake it may be.

How tight adoption and sales should be gets on the chopping block, for the ease of purchase from an indiscriminate breeder will always steal the share of the market that doesn't want the drama. That's a huge problem. Responsible breeders don't want to rival that. Commercial breeding venues know how to market, say all the right things, make purchase instant with no fifth degree, and always have on hand whatever it is you are looking for. They make it easy, which good breeders and rescues do not do. Not to say they should. Just saying it is a reality that adds to the problem and reminds us that impulse buying contributes highly to both shelter stats and the commercial breeding market alike.

I do think it is getting worse. I thought so a while back and there is not a thing that has changed my mind. This is definitely a strong era for the internet based BYBs and mills. Every puppy store that closes we applaud, but IMO it is a little naive to think those who would have gone there now instantly turn into rescuers or take up the process of research and study as to how to find a good match and a good breeder. They just go to the internet, where in less than ten minutes....less time than it would have taken them to go to the pet store....they can click and buy. That seems to me far the more probable response.

Black dogs rock!
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 4:00am PST 
We actually do have breeder licencing here. It doesn't seem to do a lot for the backyard breedersfrown but it does seem to be helping with the puppy mills:

http://www.spca-nb.ca/en/component/content/article/3-news- a-events/57-nbspca-sees-gains-in-pet-establishment-licensing

And here is the reason I think it is helping a bit with the puppy mills but as the article said, there is still a ways to go:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/10/28/ nb-puppy-mill-seizure.html

Unfortuntely, it took a man killing his Pomeranians with a hammer getting basically a slap on the wrist for this law to come into placecry

Edited by author Wed Feb 6, '13 4:12am PST

Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 6:06am PST 
I have not seen a licensing scheme yet that did not wind up favoring the for-profit breeders who can treat it as a cost of doing business, while being a major burden to responsible breeders. Most of them, in fact, are written to mandate "clean puppy mill" conditions while making raising puppies inside the home almost impossible to do under a breeder license.

So, sorry, no, I cannot support something that would make things worse, just because it feels like "doing something."

An anti-mill "gold seal" plan, though, I'd be totally behind.

In the category of going after mills using the strong arm of the law: Start enforcing ordinary animal welfare laws on them. THAT would shut many of them down quickly, raise costs for others, and do no harm at all to responsible breeders.

There is not enough enforcement of animal welfare laws on mills, and "licensing" laws never seem to include funding for either ordinary animal welfare enforcement, or enforcement of the "standards" in the licensing law. Which means that if these laws don't get defeated, it's going to be only the small-scale responsible breeders who get targeted, when a numpty neighbor complains out of spite, and they are discovered to not be raising their puppies in concrete ("non-porous flooring") kennels, and to be committing the crime of letting them play on the grass and have non-sterlizable toys (stuffies etc.)

Fund animal welfare enforcement, and don't exempt those fine businesses the puppy mills, and things would improve dramatically.
Maci & Harley & Jigar

Golden butts
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 8:41am PST 
http://kijijiblog.ca/kijiji-and-calgary-humane-society-launch-breede r-certification-program/

I had noticed this new certification program with Kijiji (a online classified) and our local humane society and really like the idea. I do not have any idea how it is going but at least it allows people to get a designer mix from a place that cares more than these 'doing nothing right by the dogs' places.

Although I would prefer people rescued from a wonderful rescue or got from a responsible breeder I always run into people that want to find a good breeder of a goldendoodle or if we get them in our golden club rescue (for the record if it has golden in it we will work on find the dog a home...I have even placed a toller mix and lab smile ). They usually have done some research, strongly want to try a goldendoodle due to their personal preferences but have heard about health issues, puppy mills etc. We educate on what they should look for visiting, etc but a program like the one started here or something like it could help.
Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 9:05am PST 
People need to take more notice of the Code of Ethics of the national breed clubs. I don't know how this can be accomplished. Buyers have to want to educate themselves, which means they need to at least join a dog forum or a breed forum or a breed club, or read the COE.

Edited to add: And in Golden Retrievers, the Code of Ethics is the BARE minimum of what makes a responsible breeder.

Edited by author Wed Feb 6, '13 9:07am PST

Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Wed Feb 6, '13 10:16am PST 
Ah! Thank you M&H! Someone is outpacing my genius laugh out loud big laugh Linky to what you referred to (I had to do a direct search to find it). I would love to see more of this. Right now, in terms of going to a responsible breeder, the onus is put directly on the consumer, which given how passionately people feel about this is a bit of a gap. I think those who care need to take more steps to help the puppy buyers make the right choices.

In terms of what would avail the good guys to continue and the commercial guys not, I have always thought the answer lies in health testing somewhere. That is an expense responsible breeders gladly shoulder, whereas with mills and BYBs clearly do not. A licensing scheme that is targeting less scrupulous breeders, IMO, needs to consider what cost factor responsible breeders typically absorb and commercial breeders typically don't would seem to me to be a smart area to concentrate on.

Quite a few states (including RI) now have puppy lemon laws, which I think is at least a step. Now curiously, PA has such a law, but while the law in many states allows one or two years for a congenital defect to be recognized, in PA it is 30 days shrug That's barely time for one to show, and also part of the law is that the puppy must have a health certificate up to three weeks prior to sale. Three WEEKS? I don't even know why they bother having such a law. The most interesting state to me is FL, which takes more of a step to target a population by limiting the law to breeders of two litters or twenty dogs annually. It also has a pretty tough component other states lack....if the puppy is deemed unfit for purchase after sale, the breeder has to reimburse vet expenses while the buyer gets to keep the puppy if they choose to do so.

A really disarming part of this mill site to me is the lack of information. Only phone numbers are available for the breeders. Not emails, and most assuredly not physical addresses. Ew.
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