If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Mon Feb 4, '13 3:23pm PST 
Please let's try to keep this thread renewed weekly and use "Keystone Puppies" as often as we can for some sort of hits on Google.

This clearly is a collection of Amish mill breeders using a cozy looking site to sell their puppies. Even some testimonials mentioned the "lovely Amish farmer" they got their puppies from. These are PUPPY MILLERS who regularly trade/buy dogs at auctions. They have no quality of life, the puppies get every wrong start. This is NOT a collection of great breeders. These are millers, getting more bang for their buck!

I found this heartwrenching video (scroll down) put on a couch for filming. Scared out of their minds. Likely the first time they were out of their kennel or pen for how they are acting. Shame, shame, shame on you, Daniel King!


Spooky Mulder
Barked: Mon Feb 4, '13 4:42pm PST 
Terrible, horrible, awful. Hopefully people will see this an think better of it.

Brokering sites like Keystone Puppies need to be shut down, and the mills they support eliminated.

When the night- closes in I will- be there
Barked: Mon Feb 4, '13 7:20pm PST 
I see lots of that. Now i want to move to PA for a minute.


Akita Pals- Always.
Barked: Mon Feb 4, '13 7:38pm PST 
I am not proud of it,but you do realize that PA, even with some of the newer laws meant to prevent and discourage them,is still ranked in the top 5 puppy mill states in the U.S.,right? The Amish are responsible for a large part of this but not all of it and there is a broker doing business not 5 miles from my house. I have tried to discourage people from buying puppies there,people have gotten sick puppies,puppies with temperment issues,and all kinds of other problems,yet business is booming because they will sell to anyone,have many breeds available,accept credit cards and offer in-store financing. As much I tried to warn them, I know two people who bought puppies from them anyway and are paying the vet bills to prove it. They feel they rescued these dogs from something worse,I have told them that all they really did was give these people their money to continue to produce more puppies that will suffer just as theirs did. I have protested,discouraged and badmouthed them all over town,it has helped a little here but they have 4 more locations statewide.cry

Work hard; Play- harder.
Barked: Mon Feb 4, '13 9:40pm PST 
Unfortunately, quite a few of the dependapotomi where we live are buying from people like this. Several people, including myself, point out why they shouldn't, but you can't tell them anything. They require instant gratification (so there is no waiting 6-9mo for a well bred pup) with a "I want it my way" (I don't want the one best suited to my lifestyle. I want the (insert color here) pup because it's (insert descriptive phrase here). If it knocks over my brat because I haven't attempted to train it, I'll immediately get rid of it and rationalize it by saying "That's what is best for my family".

More Bored- Collies
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 5:49am PST 
I think that when it comes to places like Keystone Puppies along with other mills and pet stores, we need an effective way to bust the delusion of "we're saving them!"
And enforce that every puppy bought encourages them.

Akita Pals- Always.
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 7:52am PST 
Cobain- I agree completely. For me the issue is HOW do we do that? My own sister is one of those people I failed to convince. She was grief stricken at the sudden loss of her dog,knew she wanted a beagle or beagle mix,looked in every newspaper,checked in all 3 shelters in our area,made several calls to people who had ads in the paper with no luck and was desperate and half-crazed with grief. I had avoided even telling her the place in question existed,unfortunately someone else did. When she told me that she and my BIL were going there to look,I tried everything I could think of to convince her to just hang on another day and not go there,I was sure something would turn up. She simply could not deal with her grief and went anyway. Unfortunately they happened to have"puggle" puppies. My sister brought one home and named him Max,he is absolutely adored,well cared for,and has several small health issues. she would never consider giving him up and has had him for 4 years but she still feels she rescued him from a very bad situation. A friend of mine,warned several times about how disreputable this place was,wanted a Boston Terrier,not easy to find in our area,and bought one they had there out of pity because he had sat in a cage for months and having had Boston's before she was concerned for his welfare. He has multiple health issues and agression issues as well. She knows she should not have supported their operation but was moved by her pity for how the dog was living and feels she saved him as well. If I can't convince people I know,who know better and do not support the principal of puppy mills not to buy from them,then how do we convince anyone else? To these people they were not supporting a puppy mill,they were in fact saving a puppy.

Because I'm- Duncan, that's- why

Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 8:22am PST 
hughug Mika & Kai, it's such a deep quandary. At this stage I am convinced that more than half the market for puppy mills and pet stores is people truly believing they are saving or rescuing the puppy or buying it out of pity. If only they could see the big picture.
Savannah Blue Belle

A Heart of Gold!
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 9:34am PST 
I was almost suckered into something like this before I knew better. Thanks to Dogster and it's wonderful regular posters, I have been educated.

When I was ready to get a dog who turned out to be Savannah, I had decided I wanted a yellow lab since I had one years before. I tried all the local breeders and got promises and no litters. I tried online and got some scary looking offers, which were too shady even for dumb me to go for.

But the local papers were filled with ads for labradors...in Pennsylvania, one state up. My sister lives there and owns a yellow lab. I almost asked her to just go to one of the breeders I found and pick one out for me. And then I found Savvy's breeder down in VA. So that was that. But at the time I did not realize how many puppy mills there were in PA. And that those "decent" people the Amish would benefit so from the misery of animals.

Thanks for the education. Keep up the good work and I will do what I can to keep this thread alive. No puppy mills.
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Tue Feb 5, '13 12:15pm PST 
I have two views here. One is that for those who do feel they are rescuing, you cannot change their mind. I admit, I am one of those people. Even while I am looking at those pictures, I really want those puppies. I don't go into puppy stores for all the obvious reasons, but the dominant one is that the puppies would haunt me. Someone put a video up of an auction, with a Beagle female (adult) who sold for $10 frown That's how little value she had, with others selling for $300 or $400. How much trash would she be viewed at, for that price? If I were a spy at that auction, I know I would have bid on her. There is no doubt in my mind.

On one hand a weakness I suppose, but it's the same impulse that draws me to shelter dogs, or certainly a dog in an abusive situation. I am just being honest. I don't have that willpower. Not to say that I DO this....I just avoid the exposure. I understand the "big" picture, but when it comes down to the individual, the concept of "ignore the victims while we work on getting rid of their abusers" is just overwhelmed by that individual life.

Of course, I do the responsible thing and don't expose myself to something where I know I would have such wanting willpower. Bottom line is that I do consider it a rescue....getting a dog out of a bad situation. It fits every parameter save for the significant conflict that it is a rescue that supports and fuels the very abuse suffered in the first place. So an ironic hypocrisy. I get the logic. I accommodate it by avoiding the source. It's all I can do. I remain very upset by that Beagle. I will always be very upset by that Beagle, and no amount of "it's the right thing!," meaning to just let her meet her sad fate for the greater good, will make it not seem twisted to me. But for the fate of being born where she was. Rather than a mill raid and now at a shelter, she was at a mill auction. And so now we tell her she needs to be a martyr for a battle we can't seem to win.

I am sorry to be a drag frown But I speak for her to you. Because that's all I can do for her. She's barely a commodity to them....ten bucks....and to you a forbidden fruit you must turn away from because of a battle you continue to wage and can't seem to win. For every puppy store that gets shut down, a bunch o' new internet sites form, with better profit margins for their breeders, forms. For those who both oppose mills AND breeder licensing, we will never see eye to eye. The only POSSIBLE platform I see is breeder licensing. The only defense for turning away. If there's not that goal, I think there is more than enough evidence that education alone is not enough. Some people know this stuff, bleed for this stuff, and still "rescue" mill dogs with cash. Some people want what's easiest. Some people don't care if they are ignorant. Various makes and models that all lead tgo these inevitable outcomes. So these great moral stands we take, IMO, come up a little short if breeder licensing is not believed in. At the end of the day, that's really all she has got, for there to be substance in our turning away from her.

I suppose part of my funk is that I am very tied into the breeding community and know full well the life so many of those dogs have and how much they mean to their breeders. The level of care, how treasured they are. The differences in fates to me is absurd and tragic. That's a huge difference, I find. Those who can take these hardlines without sense of conflict tend to be shelter people who have funk with breeders generally. Whereas when you love good breeders generally, when you know how those lives are valued and what meticulous care they receive and are romantic about it, this sort of stuff hits you deeper, IMO.

Now onto point two, I argued this a few years ago on Dogster where I said I felt the internet would soon become a boon for millers, offering them even more enhancement to their bottom line via direct sales, and that the same "I want it now" mentality, or simply ignorance, would be easily catered to by inviting websites. So let's just call that prophetic. It's also a lot more dangerous. It's very easy to say "don't go to puppy stores....those are milled puppies and a support to the system itself," but less easy in an industry where responsible breeders advertise on the internet also. It seems like simple math to Dogsters here...we know what to look for (but even then, a lot of dog savvy people still post "does this breeder look good to you?"). It can be hard for a novice to discern, easy for a website to make everything seem in proper order.

Something like this site, though....linked so specifically to some of the most infamous millers out there, with many arrests and abuse cases out there. Frustratingly, I did individual research on some breeders, who have previous arrests, or one case of one of these guys seeking special permission to keep 500 dogs on three acres at an old chicken farm shrug

Edited by author Tue Feb 5, '13 12:21pm PST

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