Shiloh Shepherds

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Thu Oct 11, '12 12:26pm PST 
Wowzers! laugh out loud

"No need to defend my opinion ... the website speaks for itself. Anyone who knows two cents about responsible breeding can figure out whether they are doing a favor or disservice to the breed." That's pretty presumptive.

The markers of a responsible breeder. These "rules" exist as guidelines to ward novices off breeders of less standard, responsibility and quality. They are to be used in COMBINATION with your own commonsense.

A fine example is how many breeds a breeder should specialize in. The rule says having multiple breed is a no no. And yet it is not at all uncommon for an extremely ethical and accomplished breeder, over time, to have a yen for a new experience and take on another breed or two. That rule does not exist for them. It exists as a warning against mill type situations, questioning the individual being devoted to any breed per se, but rather being devoted to money and profit, using dogs as so much livestock, which is where care levels suffer. It has no link at all with someone who may have over time grown to have three breeds of choice, of all which they title, show, belong to their breed clubs. Clussexx is a fine example. They have won Westminster with both a Clumber and a Sussex, having a devotion to the heavier spaniel breeds. There is nothing dubious about what they do, whether or not they have four breeds of choice. They are an asset to any breed, very skilled and very devoted.

As regards the size of a breeder regarding litters, firstly, to regard someone like the breeder of one Mulder's dogs, she has a market, one where she is in heavy demand for working, for sport, for service, for breeding and for pet owners who would like the sort of pedigree she deals with with her dogs, reminding that once you are in the breed, you can easily recognize the different "styles" (regions) of GSD, so even for pet preference when you don't want to work your dog, there is a market there, too. It is a constant, steady stream from all these different markets.

*****And that HELPS the world of rescue. How? It helps by being a well known "go to" source for the GSD. Someone of deep experience, reputation and credential, which makes it far more difficult for BYBs to set up shop. Breeders who are able to establish a station such as that do much to limit the viability of setting up a far less sincere and profit minded BYB business, which is far more culpable for the contribution to the shelter crisis than more sincerely dedicated breeders are.*****

In terms of Royalair, in a roundtable debate about the GSD breed people would find things to snark at surely...they are huge, lack type, have the drive of a potato....but very few breed people I know don't have some measure of affection for Royalair, who almost no matter how old you are have been a part of this breed from your childhood. They literally have third generation families on Royalair dogs....a child's grandfather raised with a Royalair puppy. Many, many repeat customers. Litters that at times are spoken for even prior to the breeding taking place. A level of admiration for a kennel that has a soft spot for the oversized, easygoing family dog GSD from the 50's, and who....here is the trick....consistently produces that dog.

That is why you should do this...breed, I mean. Because you have a passion for the dog and a market. You do it for the love of the dog, and there is a market to support that hobbyist pursuit. Not a market you create ala the designer breed craze with half truths and ignorance, but one that is there for an existing need. And for some, there is a need for that iconic huge, easygoing family GSD.

As far as who knows what where when and why, I have been in GSDs for more than thirty years. I also co-chair a rescue. On neither front do I have one problem with Royalair. They have a market, and I promote them every chance I can because that market is fraught with irresponsible breeders who breed unsound dogs and are in it to simply make a buck and do some fast sell to the public. Royalair has been doing their thing forever as they love the dog and know others go nuts for them also, and they are able to produce that dog with a lot of consistency. I'd FAR prefer they get what they want....that mellowhead....then wind up on some drive-y dog they cannot handle or do not want. I am happy there is that resource, and not from a breeder who needs flashy pages, Puppyfind or preposterous claims....just word of mouth gets them by, via very happy owners who have long thrived with these dogs. And that helps rescue. How many bad experiences would there have been? Through a larger berth for more careless and uncaring BYBs, or people settling for a dog that was not what they wanted but "sorta close" and ended up with a dog they could not handle.

Part of being true to the big picture is to realize there are markets. There IS a rescue market, and I deal with that every day. I deal with that now, with a shelter we and many rescues have been pulling out of from TN, where all the pretty dogs go and the plain janes don't, because there is a market. We do our best to take our share of the plain janes or less placeables because it is right, it is just, and eventually will find a place for them, but it will take much time and much patience. I just placed a puppy who literally grew up in this rescue. He is eight months old and was here since he was seven weeks old. That's the reality. People want what they want, no matter where you look.

And then there is a breeder market. People who don't want to rescue, who are more comfortable with the breeder route, or who have very specific needs. In terms of GSDs in rescue, there are many. A purebred puppy? You basically have to have a major "in," because they are not common and everyone and their cousin will want that puppy. Rescue cannot adequately meet the needs of someone who wants a purebred GSD puppy. And if there is some snark that a mix puppy is "close enough" to a purebred GSD, then I could retort that a plain jane shelter dog is "close enough" to a more fashionable looking shelter pup just the same. And that plain jane dog is going to die, ultimately at the hands of a rescue positive public who at the end of the day are still going to want what they want.

Royalair does not hurt the world of rescue. If I saw a Royalair type dog in the system, I'd be one of a gamillion rescues competing for that dog, and he'd be adopted within a week. If you want a huge GSD....hard to find in rescue. If you want a GSD with the genetic makeup to be an easygoing daisy chewer....hard to find in rescue. They do not hurt the world of rescue, they help by being an iconic name in the type they specialize in, shutting the door a little more closed for less sincere BYBs who find a niche to advantage for their own gain, having nothing to do with the love for the dog.

I am the Sock- Bandit!!!
Barked: Thu Oct 11, '12 12:48pm PST 
I'm fortunate to know some really good breeders who have been willing to help me decide if I'll go in to breeding some day. They do have a vision for their dogs, know what they want to contribute. Having only 1-2 litters in five years will likely not get them there. You need to see generations of carefully monitored genetics expressed in that great dog.

Also have to agree, that being on just one breed does not necessarily equal a better breeder. The ones I know are ALL on two breeds. For whatever reason, that's what they feel comfortable working with. Quite often they are breeds that compliment eachother. Airedales and the various foxes are often raised together for example. Irish wolfhounds are raised with terriers alongside as well. It is a lifelong learning experience and many people decide to branch out. That shouldn't be held against a person, IMHO.
Ava & Nix

Suburban Farm- Dogs
Barked: Thu Oct 11, '12 3:18pm PST 
I am totally not involved in this conversation other than I've been stalking it because Shilohs are a breed I have some interest in, although realistically will probably never end up owning over the handful of other breeds I want to someday have, but I just wanted to say Tiller.. applause! That was awesome!

Edited by author Thu Oct 11, '12 3:19pm PST



Barked: Fri Oct 12, '12 8:19am PST 
My two shilohs are very sweet and inteligents..they follow me everywhere, they dont leave me alone for one second, they are just like a German Shepherd just a bit jealous.yet friendly...they dont show any aggresion at all now when Im home however if someone they dont know come home they will bark and come close to me to protect me, one of them is so jealous that when someone tried to hold my hand once he always bite him..i have no complaints about them, they r just like a german shepherd but energic, they dont get all crazy when i take them out and always are calm ...its like a gentle big german shepherd, just more quiet laid down and less active but the very same guard inctints ..

Mali Woo
Barked: Sat Nov 3, '12 9:46am PST 
I am going to try and answer every ones posts.

“As a breed they suffer from temperament issues mostly related to lack of nerve and stability. They also share hip and elbow issues with their GSD cousins, though very poor breeding practices across the board have perhaps made it even more prevalent in some lines.”
It is true some Shilohs have hip and elbow issues as do any size dog, from Dane to Min pin. However, we have a extensive medical data base which shows our litters are producing stable hips at 2% dysplastic. Checking with OFA you will see a different rate because we have to be thrown in with all the “Sliver Dogs” or dogs which are bred by breeders no of our dog club and do not follow the strict breeding regulations of the ISSR which is the breed club of the Breed founder Tina Barber.
The temperament issues are not lack of nerve and stability but lack of poor breeding on the part of the slivers as many of them will breed to any dog with the word Shepherd in its name, at least as of 3 years ago when last I researched throughout the country different kennels.

“They are a much softer breed than the GSD. For you, for service work, that might not be a bad thing. "Soft" does not have to mean "fearful" or weak nerved, however, that IS a problem the breed faces and should be taken into extreme consideration when selecting a breeder.”
It is true they are a softer breed as they were bred to be companions not for protection. They make amazing service dogs. There is more than one puppy less than 7 months old that has perform a Heroic act and saved its masters life. One of my pups did so just this past summer, at six months old was hiking in the woods with its owner whose blood sugar dropped to low and became unconscious. This sweet girl unable to rouse him left him there and went for help. She returned with help, leading people back to him. My girls has saved my life twice, told my friend she had a cyst on her breast and caught an elderly woman before she fell.
A dog can be soft, but add confident in there and the softness is not a problem.
My girl Mali by the way is a hard Shiloh, in the GSD world that is a medium and she has enough confidence for two dogs. Before Shilohs I trained Belgian Mals.

All dogs should be socialized with both humans and dogs. It says right in my contract three times Socialize, Socialize, Socialize. Who wants a 100 pound dog that has not been socialized?
Was you aunts male neutered before he started the dog aggression? In my breed club if you have not signed a breeders agreement and started taking classes to become a breeder, which means your puppies would have been in puppy classes, your pup would have been either neutered or spayed between 14 and 18 months or age.

The key is in the breed Club. The breed club ISSR has a very strict handle on their breed, where they others do not. We keep track of all of our litters, medically and genetically.

You could go to our breeders list http://www.shilohshepherds.org/ and find lots of breeders or join our forum and see who will have a new litter and is looking for people to purchase a puppy. I hope to have two litters on the ground this winter and do not have a full list yet.

I forgot to mention Pistol Pete he is a hard Shiloh who is being trained in Shutzhund. He is also a service dog and a Grand Champion.

The difference between Shilohs and King Shepherds is that the Kings added some other breeds into the mix. A long time ago they were the same breed but they broke away. When they added the different breeds they became a different breed. Tina sued them; and so, they changed their name. Unfortunately if she sued everyone who added a different breed to her dogs she would have spent all of her time in court and no time with her dogs, so she gave up and started calling them slivers. It broke her heart.
The problem with this is the problem you see now. All these dogs out there people think are Shilohs and are not. They look something like ours but medically and behaviorally they are not. I am not saying that they are all bad, there are quite often wonderful dogs, but they are not the same dogs. The people who breed them to not keep track of their genetics, or their litters of pups, in the same manner as our breed club.

It was not ego that broke everything apart it was difference of on how everything should be run and how the dogs should be bred. People wanted money and Ma was not ready, the dogs were not yet a stable breed, they were not breeding true yet. It was politics... greed…you can read whatever you want slivers put out on the net, but unless you hear it from ma and she passed away a year ago ypou will never know what really happened.

Yes, she was a Sliver! The ISSR has not had an outcross in 14+ years.. I wish I could give you the exact number but I know it is 14 or 15.

Shiloh fur
Shilohs blow coat twice a year. The plush coats actually shed less than the smooth coats. Mali sheds worst than my other three girls. I brush all 4 of them once a week, but I live in NC. Up north I am sure they brush their dogs a little more. I take the girls to the groomer for a shedding shampoo and conditioner and their coat comes out in a week. With four it is like snow in my dog yard.

I hope I have answered everyone.
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Sun Nov 4, '12 10:21am PST 
"you can read whatever you want slivers put out on the net, but unless you hear it from ma and she passed away a year ago ypou will never know what really happened."

That is way beyond the time I was referring to. Shiloh started as a GSD kennel with a mission to improve the GSD, and at the time was quite recognized by PPD people, and admired for the extreme effort to track genetic results. They were not a breed, they were a line, and a lot of people respected their work. I still have stacks and stacks of old Shiloh newsletters buried in a box somewhere. Many PPD people made the pilgrimages to visit Shiloh at that time. Talking here about the 1970's, and I would gather before, but that is when my familiarity commences.

She definitely had some personal stuff go on and who is to say what happened, but the dog of then and the dog of now don't compare. That's not a dig, just observation of a shift. The kennel got rather large, started to cater to the pet market, and drifted. This was a highly sought after protection strain at one time. That the dogs could work, be sound, be stable....that rounded package. The "total dog," as they used to say.

There was no reason to drift from the AKC. That was what I was referring to. Tina alone owned the Shiloh prefix. Tina alone controlled the blood of her dogs. The only person with the right to breed Shiloh dogs was Tina. The only one to lose control of that? One in the same. She created her market, and that was about the end of that. The Shiloh became a breed.

And not, I do respectfully challenge, a breed reminiscent of the GSDs of 1962. This is marketing that continues, and with which I take great exception. I knew those dogs. And they do not resemble Shilohs. To continue to use that as a promotional platform is to me questionable if the decision was made to leave the AKC, to leave the GSDCA and thereby the GSD itself. There are plenty of splinters in this breed....the Am shows, the Czechs, the DDRs, west German show, west German work, the old fashioneds, etc......that saw no need to divest, who deal with hostilities and lacks of support in a breed and stay true to what they are doing. Who control their own blood and have their own dog that is still a German Shepherd. Mulder may wince, but be it an Am or a DDR....the soul of the GSD is in both somewhere. "Soft" is not SV character. I do not equate that with weak nerves. I have Am Cockers, and one of them you could put a bomb under and he wouldn't flinch. But hardness is a part of GSD breed character....was there in the 1960's....and is a part of both the SV and AKC standards today. "Friendly," as well, lessens the ability of a dog to discriminate, and even the AKC standard of today continues to make that distinction.

For those who have gone on with it, this breed known as the Shiloh, I say rock on. A potentially nice companion breed with a foundational history behind it certainly has its point and purpose. But this is not a replica or a breed reminiscent of the 1962 GSD. Said from personal experience, of both the 1960's GSD, and the Shiloh of today. Those are different bananas.

When von Stephanitz split from the Phylax Society his quest was not to develop a herding breed but to use herding breeds as the foundation for an ultimate working breed. Herding to him was the ultimate combination of athleticism, efficiency, a higher thinking intelligence, nerves and handler bond. He did this in twenty years time by putting focus on a dog's utility, which is what led to the spectacular foundation on the iconic family GSD only a few decades later. To move from utility will not preserve character. These dogs were not "45 caliber water pistols," a phrase Tina herself as used. They were the real deal.

To study and understand the roots and the Phylax split particularly from the perspective of Max von Stephanitz....and there was only one of him....is an integral part of maintaining GSD character. And if you don't have that, you do not have the iconic "old fashioned" GSD. You can have something perfectly nice, but he will not be that dog.

The Boy Wonder
Barked: Wed Nov 7, '12 1:40pm PST 
There are times that I wish Dogster would allow me to 'like' a post... now is one of those times. Thank you Tiller you put that so much better than I could have.

Member Since
Barked: Thu Nov 8, '12 9:47am PST 
If by 'slivers' you mean something which was not 'authorized' by Tina, well, as I said. Posts from Tina herself can still be found on foreign boards in which she reposts conversations with what seems to be a good friend with one J. Hopkin.

And Mr. Hopkin did use his dog for mixed breeding with wolf mixes. And Tina herself is the listed owner of an imported CsV. So I don't see how it would be a 'sliver' as you say.
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Thu Nov 8, '12 11:10am PST 
Thank you! smile

Would like to expand a little that the oversized "old fashioneds" are actively bred in GSD circles. A bit of a controversy, but then again, that's sorta like them joining an already crowded party in that breed laugh out loud big laugh To me personally, it's a big whatev, as I think often when this type gets debated, those against it don't realize it has been around for many decades. Far older than their involvement in the breed itself. These breeders started to crop up IN the 1960's. It's actually a fallacy to say the GSD of "1962," which one sees in Shiloh literature. The dog they are referring to was iconic in the 40's-50's. Contrary to some assumptions, the 1960's was when this breed started to noticeably head the wrong way. Enter the "old fashioneds."

Valiantdale certainly, who has always focused on utility and *has not stopped* since, and they came up the same time Shiloh kennels did. Particularly focused on two colors that seemed to be dying off....the blacks and black-and-silvers, the latter now quite a rare color, but was very common back in the day and attached to a very good working strain. Right around the time Shiloh was splitting off from the GSD breed and doing their thing, Valiantdale came up with the jewel in the crown, Icon. He got both his UDT and Sch III....a very difficult accomplishment.....and proved to be quite a significant sire, topping the GSDCA's working sire list for a five year term. He was a black-and-silver, but coal black. Very impressive animal.

The oft discussed Royalair, land o' the easygoing and VERY large GSD, incorporated both Valiantdale and older Shiloh lines into their breeding program, along with imports. I thought I'd put up this video. This is Silver Mark, a dog used by Royalair but of 100% Valiantdale lines. This is a marvelous male. He is the size of a pony, but OFA Excellent and DM clear! You do get a look at his movement in here, and while it's not about to turn a show breeder on their ear, it is a true movement for a dog this size. Very nice boy. Not for me, but if you want them big and oldschool-ish, a very fine animal.

Silver Mark is sired by Valiantdale's very best son of Icon (who truly was the personification of the type and no hype required), the black dog Boss, who had his Sch III as well. Boss was the product of breeding Icon to a granddaughter of the Czech working dog legend Held, from a bitch of Kirschental lines, they the premiere GSD show kennel in west Germany with a focus on herding. Silver Mark's dam stems from the Rin Tin Tin sire line...yes, THAT Rin Tin Tin laugh out loud, from a female line that consistently titled in obedience venues.

This pedigree includes VAs, many working titles, Grand Victors, Held, Kirschental, Yoncalla's Mike (noteworthy Grand Victor and non extreme sire), Rin Tin Tin. With much in the way of utility. The pedigree in total focuses on remote linebreeding to Icon and Rin Tin Tin...best of the best....with an outcross to Held/Kirschental. Like it or leave it, that's still a stocked pedigree.

He is very big, a little lumbering, but his character shows and his pedigree is just FAB for those who value the iconic GSD of "1962." This guy is a bit more of a plowhorse than those were, but he's as healthy as can be....he's seven years old in this video, with very free movement still. Obviously a lovely temperament.

If there IS a recreation of the old school GSD, it is more personified in this dog, who has the pedigree and the titling within it to back it up. *HERE* is the pedigree of a fundamentally important Shiloh sire. The majority of this pedigree is American show. I have ***no problem**** with that. But the lack of utility? Wowzers! Particularly considering the claims. By contrast, one can go to one of the most accomplished-slashed-maligned show kennels known in the breed, Covy Tucker-Hills. Their male big male, Marc, who earned an AOM at Westminster this year, has both obedience and herding titles and is from champion parents who equally have their herding titles. This is STRAIGHT show. As big as it gets. The evil empire laugh out loud big laugh Their lines are dominant in some of the top OB lines of today, and for all their show craze, were highly behind many of the working dog programs sponsored by the GSDCA and in awarding Victor titles to various working sport competitions at the national speciality. The record shattering show dog and leading sire of the current era, Dallas, had his herding certificate and an innumerable number of his offspring do as well.

If the SHOW world has a higher standard as regards utility? If this splinter was meant to simulate Max von Stephanitz' defection with a "breed warden," etc., and little demand was placed on utility in breeding stock, you will never, ever, ever get close to the iconic family GSD of an era gone by.

If you want an old school GSD, you'd hit a lot closer going to Covy Tucker-Hills, let alone to Valiantdale, Royalair, etc.

Edited by author Thu Nov 8, '12 11:34am PST

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