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Designer Crosses

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 8:26pm PST 
... You still didn't answers any of my questions.

What kind of contract? What were the health screenings? Is he guaranteed against crippling defects? Any titles? Any ANYTHING?

Just because there are crappy pure breed breeders, doesn't somehow justify designer breeders who are equally bad.
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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 8:28pm PST 
Soooo, your husband vetoed a Poodle because he didn't like the way the looked or their size, and he liked the temperament of a St. Bernard.

So the answer was to get a mix of a Poodle x St. Bernard which gave him a dog that has, according to you, even BETTER temperament than a St. Bernard due to the Poodle influence.

And he's also a 'Service Dog' at 11 months old.

Got it.
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Ice

What's Cooler- Than Being Cool?- Ice Cold!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 8:30pm PST 
I'm confused about people that "hate" poodles or the way they look. All you get is a doofier looking version with less smarts when you mix them... Maybe I'm biased.
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Zephyr

1213425
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 8:31pm PST 
You have a SD who is 11 months old? thinking

Frankly more laws are not going to help. Breeders churning out garbage are going to continue to churn out garbage. And yes I do look down upon "doodle" breeders since finding a responsible one with an eye for an actual breed in the long-term over a quick buck is like finding a needle in a field of moldy haystacks.

You can't breed for 'the betterment of the breed' if there is no breed to begin with.
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 8:42pm PST 
Haha Ice, true enough.


"I DON'T WANT A FRU-FRU DOG NO POODLES!"

Then turns around and gets a dog that literally looks just like an oddly colored/sized Poodle?

I don't understand.
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Sarge

Teddybear
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 9:31pm PST 
Yes, Sarge is my SD. He's still in training but at this point he's already reminding me to take my meds without fail, passed his CGC, and alerts me by touch before I hit my manic phases. He's been perfect in public access training so far. He's as smart as a whip and easy to train. Even my doctors are amazed at how well he does when I've taken him in. Working on a few other things I want him to help me with so until then he's still training but for now he is doing a lot for me already. I have absolutely no regrets on getting a cross. One of the great things is the lemon laws in certain states are better then a lot of the breeders contracts. In the state I purchased Sarge, if he turns up with any congenital defects within a year of purchasing him I have several options available. One of them is that I can keep him and still have his vet bills payed for up to the purchase price of the puppy. His parents were health tested as well. Heck his father was even a champion. Most of the breeders for purebred dogs I came across want the dog back and in their contracts state they don't pay vet fees. My Rottie had come from champion parents and I paid a lot for her. Yes I got the standard two yr contract for her but it was a waste because I wasn't going to give her back period if anything was wrong. It's rare to get breeders to let you keep the dog and help cover costs. Is there standards for pure breed dogs in temperment and look? Yes but I can say that a big percent of people breeding dogs are just saying heck it has AKC parents why not breed it because its pure bred even though the standards aren't met. Heck I've had to take a puppy away from someone that did just that and bottle feed it to save its life because they were killing it because they were irresponsible and didn't have a clue on how to care for pups after they've bred their akc dogs. Later they took the siblings to walmart to sell with their akc papers. Having only licensed breeders would help and having more states take part in the lemon laws would help. The whole thing with pure breed having standards and crosses don't is true but this is just the start. Who's to say they wont go into 2nd, 3rd, generations and so on until they get what they are looking for just like the pure breeds had done. I've seen some cross breeds that are getting into 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations.
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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 9:47pm PST 
If a mix gets into actual refined generations, I'd be more apt to accept them as not just a money-making ploy. A first generation cross is nothing more than an experiment, and if a person were serious about it, they would keep them and continue developing the dogs and separate lines. Not sell them for money - maybe give them away would be more like it.

YES tons of purebred dogs are bred without better standards, absolutely! That doesn't excuse or lower the standards for any dog bred of any kind, though.

A 2-year guarantee is not 'standard'. It's actually subpar. In large breeds (even in small..) many genetic problems do not show up until after that. Being from Ch. parents doesn't make a breeder good either.

For a breeder to depend on state law to look after puppies (ie Lemon Laws) is a cop out. They should always want to be personally responsible.
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Sarge

Teddybear
 
 
Barked: Mon Jul 2, '12 11:02pm PST 
I agree Lillith that a breeder should have better standards and that health contracts should be longer, but most of the time it isn't. Plus even if the contract is 5 years are you willing to part with your dog or if they let you keep it and give you the option to get a replacement from the same breeder when the dog passes away like most contract options give you, would you really accept it? I wouldn't. Since a lot of them aren't very reasonable I'm glad states are stepping up to the plate and creating these laws. I would want to keep my pet but have some help with vet bills. I think it will help stop some of the back yard breeders that are out to get a quick buck if they end up accountable for the pups health issues if more states had the same laws. I wish AKC would even start creating these types of standards for contracts or better even to be able to register pups. These of course are my opinions and you don't have to agree. I know a lot of people want less government interference and laws. Those that say Sarge is basically a poodle I have to say that Sarge is 108 lbs last time I weighed him and still growing so definitely not poodle sized at all especially if you were to see him in person not to mention his paws are huge. I personally have nothing against poodles. I've dealt with them in the groom shop and they are smart dogs. I was looking at them originally so for the poodle lovers out there I wasn't trying to offend you. Being married though you do have to compromise and that's what I did. Like I said before, no regrets. I got a wonderful dog who's helping me with my disability and I have a happy husband that is very willing to help me as well as being supportive with his training. Now one thing I do hate is when I see people breeding pure breeds and then have several cross breeds as well they are breeding. This goes for those that also breed several different pure breed dogs at the same time. I feel if they are going to do cross breeding or even breeding pure breed dogs that they should concentrate on one alone to create the ideal standard for a cross bred or pure bred dog.
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Tyler

Whippy- The- Whipador
 
 
Barked: Tue Jul 3, '12 6:09am PST 
From my searching around Lilith, many Labradoodles from the good breeders are multigenerational now.
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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Tue Jul 3, '12 7:02am PST 
Tyler- I know many of them are using multigenerational mixes now. And I also know that many of them don't guarantee what type of coat etc.

I'm not really sure why you like to defend Labradoodles, because the crux of the issue is that you (general) tend to look at specific pieces and from it infer whether or not a person is a good breeder. When you do the 'regular' list of things like health testing et al, YES, I have seen some of the mixes have PennHIP scores and what not. I have some that some of them may of CGCs or other certificates.

The huge part that is missing is that those 'requirements' are generally OK when looking at a breeder who is breeding an already established breed. And why is that? Because when you're breeding an already established breed, it takes the work out of having to established x generations of 5-6 unrelated lines and a few hundred dogs which breed true, to build what is generally considered and accepted as a breed with a healthy, large gene pool.

When you choose to breed a developing dog, you have that additional responsibility. And that development of a breed is what is lacking in the 'doodle breeders, even the ones from the parent club.

It really doesn't matter that you have 4 'doodles that you have health tested and you breed from generationally, because that doesn't establish a strong breed. That only maybe establishes your little pet project.

Serious breeders who breed crosses, don't breed a first generation cross and call it a breed. And those early generation crosses, aren't sold for money - they are kept for future development, or culled (by sterilization or otherwise) and given away as a failed part of experimental breeding. To inject the possibility to make money off of what is basically a early-generation dog without set characteristics (not a breed) is the same as selling mixes for tons of money. Last I checked the 'Australian Labradoodle Club' had some sort of thing where all puppies (of any backcross, any F) was $2000 USD.

It's really distasteful and I think shows a complete lack of knowledge in regards to building a strong breed foundation. There are many relatively new breeds and not all are uncontested - but I can say with certainty at least for one of my breeds, that Spurlin, who is the original founder of AKK, kept it as a personal project for over a decade (and even that is considered a short period of time). Only in '87 did she finally release some of the dogs to 1 kennel whom she worked closely with. At that time she had a pool of about 30 breeding dogs and even then knew that it was too small a genetic pool. She didn't breed an Alaskan Husky to a Sckippe and call it an AKK and start selling them for money. She kept the developing dogs and was quite selective in the breeding direction, even to the criticism that she was too harsh with culling.

The spay and neuter clause many of the doodle breeders insist on, I can't say are reflective of real culling selection, because for extra money you can get that exact same dog with breeding rights. Things like that.


And that's where I'm coming from - I don't see such a serious effort among the individual or club doodle breeders. Simply I see a way to make money on a mixed dog with no real direction. And I'm REALLY the last person to have a problem with new breeds..
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