PULLING......good. flipping. grief......

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Barked: Wed Mar 20, '13 6:15pm PST 
Treasure is our foster. She's been here nearly 3 weeks now. I initially tried to keep her a bit subdued because of her entropian and spay surgeries but nothing slowed her down. She was declared a springer/lab mix, 3-4 months old...but I think at this point it's obvious that is all incorrect. Dogsters here guessed her to be some sort of hound or setter mix. She is height wise already as tall as Trigger and she is too tall and lanky to be either springer or lab imho. I don't think she is anywhere near 3-4-5 months unless she is secretly injecting herself with super power growth hormone. I've never seen a dog this size anywhere near that guessed age. She is currently eating twice what the big boys are and drinks at least that too.

My dilemma:

Her legs go on for DAAAAAAAYS. And she has almost zero coordination. Although I was all about her running off all that pent up energy she stored up from her stint in the shelter I still had her work on basics - recall, sit, down, wait and heel. Here, sit, down and wait she got down within days of being home and she happily obliges me with them multiple times a day. Heel though? Freaking FORGET about it. On leash she doesn't do the bucking broco bit but she just will not settle down for anything. She'll sit at my feet on it messing with toys, but the second I get up or we try to move forward even a single step she is jumping, leaping, LUNGING forward with everything she has and just will not let up.

With every other dog I've ever had they pull in the beginning, but quickly sort out that if they do we stop and it quickly curbs the behavior. That's all I ever had to do!!!

Not this one. There is no threshold. A centimeter of forward movement and she just wants to EXPLODE forward. I cannot put enough emphasis on the word EXPLODE. It is literally just that. It can't feel good, and doing what I'm doing it takes us forever to move forward a foot, but there is like some disconnect in her head and I can just not get through to her. I'm growing weary and need ideas. I'd rather not go the harness route if at all possible. I don't want to sink that kind of money into something and then have her leave for a new home tomorrow (I'd be lying if I said we weren't contemplating keeping her but we aren't decided yet so I'm continuing to try to prepare her for reasonable behavior in a family if that's what it comes down to. The boys are on leash maybe once or twice a year so it wouldn't be such a big deal if she stays, if she doesn't though.....yikes for anyone fixing to walk her around the block...). I do let her run her fool head off outside multiple times a day but we still work heel on the way out, around the yard after she's had some exercise, on the way back in, in the house from the livingroom to the kitchen, from the kitchen to the bedroom, multiple multiple times a day and she still hasn't made any progress. I swear she gains an inch and 3lbs everyday and on leash she is becoming more and more of a giant clumsy furry wrecking ball. It's getting harder and harder to control her and I want to nip this asap.

She is super sensitive so anything harsh is out of the question. She is very food motivated and melts with praise.

I feel like I'm missing something really obvious here.

Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
Barked: Wed Mar 20, '13 6:32pm PST 
First of all, with those ears, bloodhound mix?
I have had good luck with using food as a lure for crazy pulling dogs. I hold the leash fairly close with my left hand and hold the food right in front of the head with my right hand but in my fist. Lots of chatter from me...praise, etc. , and I stop often to give the food. Usually, after a few days I am able to get farther and farther with less food stops, and they begin to understand the position gets them the food.
Good luck!!!
Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
Barked: Wed Mar 20, '13 9:37pm PST 
Yup, I concur with Toto! No shame whatsoever in luring with enticing, amazing, food into position to get the idea. Oh, and walk (trot) fast. laugh out loud

Forget setter, those ears---she's a hound! wink

Bella and- Daisy CGC

I'm a Meanie
Barked: Wed Mar 20, '13 9:52pm PST 
Forget legs!! Look at those ears!! I'm with Toto, maybe some bloodhound in there for sure. As they grow they get VERY lanky and clumsy. Entropion is super common as well. They are goofy and they can be independent (which some call stubborn). They are also made for slow and steady working for miles and miles.

I agree that food is a good way to start. With Daisy (who I adopted at 3yo) I had to take her out at night to start her LLW. There were too many distractions outside during daylight for me to even think about it.

Sorry, but I wouldn't have an untrained hound without front clip harness. My girls can (and do) walk with their collars only now but all training was done with the front clip. If any of your friends have a harness you could borrow, even tying a rope/leash to the front of it would work.

I haven't tried it but with rope you might could make your own version of this and it might help as well.


Also, maybe you could start with super basic. You say as soon as you get up she goes crazy. Maybe start with teaching her when you get up with the leash...she should have your attention on you? Don't even worry about the moving forward part.

Of course, getting her nose active will help work her out as well. Either with food toys or hiding her meals and having her search out the kibble.
Bella and- Daisy CGC

I'm a Meanie
Barked: Wed Mar 20, '13 10:11pm PST 
And I am sure you know this....but having her won't be anything like having your labs (if you keep her). Part of this might help explain why she has no desire to be with you when its time to go either.

Scent hounds are meant to run away from their owners...find what they are hunting for then call the hunter to to the prey. As she ages, she might not be a good off leash dog unless you have fenced areas for her. Some scent hounds can learn to be off leash with an e-collar, but some really could care less and will run the scent though even the highest settings. They also do not look for direction from their owners. They like to decide for themselves what they should be doing. A lot of training is making sure that you are making them think that whatever it is you want them to do was their idea in the first place.

It's also why they can be more challenging to train to LLW. They want to get out and smell the world. As a puppy, she of course is going to want to play and run as well.

I love those aspects of my hounds, but it certainly isn't for everyone.
Sanka- I'll Miss- You

The ground is my- newspaper.
Barked: Thu Mar 21, '13 6:34am PST 
Not sure if possible, but the best thing I ever did for Sanka in training to walk well on leash was rollerblading/biking with him first. I wore him out physically and then did a quick training lesson for the brain on walking. It helped him get it.

So, when it was time to walk without wearing him out first, he'd initially explode but then he'd remember the training and try that for a reward. This was when he just wanted to run off "explode."

I did use a head harness for when he just wanted to cruise and sniff the ground. That was a whole different ball game though.

Anyway, not sure if you can (snow impedes it of course!) or want to do that, but just tossing it out there. The constant running with the bike/blades was different than off leash romps. It wore out the legs, not the mind.

Barked: Thu Mar 21, '13 6:52am PST 
Toto and others - see now that's why I love Dogster. What a lightbulb!!!! I was attempting to get her to walk reasonably with treats in hand to offer after she did, having them right there in her face might be the bridge I need to get her to understand what I'm after. I really do think that'll work perfectly!!!!

Bella and Daisy - I questioned what she was up in Choosing the Right Breed because aside from the way she looks she doesn't act hound of any kind AT ALL. She has been extremely biddable, more so than the Labs. She's been allowed off leash since the day she got here and not only does she seem to fully understand boundaries but she checks in on her own often. She does track rabbits around the yard, but is more than happy to leave a trail immediately if we call her. If we say so much as "Hey now" to her jumping up (which she did a lot of in the beginning but is now much better) she seems to absorb it as a huge blow and immediately slinks to the ground like we're going to haul off on her. She rebounds quickly but she definitely cares what the people around her are thinking of her and feeling. Same thing has transferred inside. If I raise my voice at all to my kids, even just in play, she becomes so concerned....belly crawls her way up to me ears back and starts licking my hand as if to say "please don't be mad!"

Not that I'm saying she'll be anything like a Lab, but I also don't see her developing a stubborn aloof houndy personality either. If I had to venture a guess she's already at least 9 months old.. I would think at this point if that was how she was going to be we'd be seeing it in full force, no?

We are however giving it some time just to be sure.

We are not the on leash dog kind of people and no dog that lives here can require that. We don't fence and we like to be able to go in and out with the dogs at will without having to worry about if the door gets shut right behind us or who's where and hooked up to what. We much prefer to be able to trust our dogs to stick around with appropriate training and supervision.
Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
Barked: Fri Mar 22, '13 5:38am PST 
For what it's worth, I know hounds have a general reputation, but they can be biddable and sensitive and very much people pleasers (and there a lot of differences in degrees even among the different hounds) and who knows what else is in there!

Gus (according to the DNA test, for whatever that's worth) has Collie and Basset hound in her--does that fully explain her? Eh, she is what she is--I can credit her smarts and biddability to the collie and her "independent" moments to the hound, but who knows . . . . at the end of the day she's just the mutt that she is and I work with what works for her.

Since, you've got an unknown . . . . keeping breed tendencies in mind is one thing, but you don't want to make too much of what it's "supposed" to mean about the dog in front of you.

But I'm rambling and I know you know all this already! laugh out loud Maybe just putting it out there for anyone else following along.

When the night- closes in I will- be there
Barked: Sat Mar 23, '13 4:50am PST 
If you don't have a front clip harness you can use a spare leash and hold it in a large loop draped across her chest. Its an old trick I learned with horses. It should hang loosely just at the tops of her front legs, hold the ends in your leash hand with the leash. As she moves forward it should put just slight pressure on her legs. If you have ever handled reins its pretty easy to get the hang of working the leash and loop separately, otherwise it just takes practice. If she tries to back out of it step behind her. Because the loop is touching their legs they are hesitant to push forward. It works great on really strong dogs, just not Shadow 'cause she does cartwheelslaugh out loud

Lenny -The- Wrecking Ball
Barked: Sun Mar 24, '13 12:20pm PST 
I just wanted to agree that hounds may have a very specific reputation that people have given them... but in having one hound and a hound mix I've learned it isn't entirely true. Lenny is quite biddable as long as rewards are in play (food or perhaps play or permission to go off and smell a really exciting smell) so with food teaching him LLW wasn't too difficult, now granted it's not what a lot of people would use as the standard for LLW but there's no tension in the line and if I have to for whatever reason I can almost always call him to a heel if necessary. With a hound it just made more sense to me to let him have more leash to sniff and explore than try to be too strict about it. Felt like an uphill battle I would never win. Now he can have his hound exploring time but he does't pull me and doesn't tune me out either.

Lenny is also EXTREMELY sensitive. Just like your girl a vocal command given even slightly too hard makes him give the whole "please don't be mad" act. My other boy (most likely a pointer mix possibly with a smaller hound like beagle) is also quite sensitive but not as much. For him LLW has only begun to be a successful process with a head halter. He would just explode like crazy and in combination with a head halter and lots of food he's slowly making progress. But he's not as quick a learner either.

Off leash for Lenny is a no go, I just tend to use either his 50ft or 30ft lines and that way he has more freedom but I can still keep him safe from going off. Unlike your girl he rarely, if ever, checks in on his own. Now if I call him back to me, he almost always comes right back to me and I can have him walk on a short leash if we have to pass people or just send him right back in. So maybe when it comes to off leash behavior she takes after another breed in her mix?
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