I can't believe the entire situation.. Ignorant owners.. Regrets, and sorrow.

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 7:03pm PST


	Some of you may recall me mentioning a friends dog a few times.. She was reactive with strange people on her leash, but off she was good. Protective of the small children(under 1, and 2) and well behaved other than the reactivity issues. She was a little under socialized, so she was iffy with strange dogs dependent on the dog.. But overall, not a bad dog by any means. She was a Shepherd Collie mix.. A three year old, beautiful dog, loyal as could be, watching over her family. She is dead now, due to some very unfortunate, idiotic circumstances. Perhaps it was denial.. She moved to a farm with her family which was the best place for her, with the issues she had. And it was the best place for their puppy too, and even their children. Yesterday, however... She killed another dog. A Bichon/Shih-tzu to be exact, of whom belonged to the mother-in-law. Who she'd known for the past two years.. Apparently, she'd been harassed by this dog many a time, and had repeatedly had moments where she went after him to tell him off - never carrying it any further than that. But it kept building up. Instead of taking it as a hint to keep the dogs separated, when the signs became subtle, the owners assumed all was good again... It was not.. Yesterday, while the dogs were outside with the children(about 7 years old - two of them), all unsupervised... One of the children came running to find adults saying, "Sierra killed Tom!" They rushed outside to find disaster. A bloody mess. A small dog torn apart, but still barely breathing, and a scared and very, very upset Shepherd who ran and hid. Tom was not killed. In fact, it appears to have been her finally losing it on the little dog, going after him and doing more damage than was intended. She did not kill him. His wounds did shortly after. Sierra hid. My friend went to her, knowing the father-in-law was grabbing the rifle and held and kissed her dog, tears rolling down her cheeks as she tried to understand what had happened. What happened? Dogs who should NOT have been left unsupervised together, much less with children, were. A dog got fed up and attacked. And both dogs are now dead for it because the owners didn't take the signs that WERE CLEAR prior, to separate the dogs and keep them that way. Two good dogs are dead. My heart is broken... I was expecting her to bite a dog, or perhaps a stranger on her leash, but never something so far. I repeatedly tried to get them to see past their denials and they never did... And now, because of it... two dogs are dead. I can't help but feel so many regrets over the situation, for not PUSHING HARDER to get them to see her issues, and get them to be more pro-active about it... I can't imagine being in that situation, I can't imagine seeing those dogs die so horrifically... Both are now buried on the farm. And my friend is confused about what happened, why it happened, what she could have done wrong. Is it cruel of me to have pointed out that they should have been separated? Is it cruel of me to be angry with THEM for this situation? Tom never would have ended up dead if they had kept the dogs separated, or had supervised their time together, and Sierra would not have either. Perhaps I'm being too cruel and cold-hearted with the owners about it.. I love my friends, I do... But I do not feel they are fit to be dog owners. They're in denial about their dogs issues, get dogs without doing any research about the breeds(they're the ones with the Irish Setter puppy and never walk her!), don't walk them, etc... Sierra.. You were a good dog.. You didn't deserve the end that happened for you, and neither did Tom.. I wish things could have been different.. I wish neither of you had been put in this situation, or got hurt or died.. I'm so sorry, sweethearts.. I'm so incredibly sorry... This post is just as much about the loss of these two incredibly sweet dogs, as it is about the ignorant owners who denied the signs given to them, and refused to do something about it. Any ignorant owner who doesn't educate themselves enough to KNOW the signs when they see it, or keep dogs separate when they CLEARLY have issues(or at least supervised!).. I've had tears in my eyes since the moment I heard.. Those poor babies... R.I.P Tom and Sierra.. You were good dogs.

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Opheila

It ain't over- till the fat- kitty sings

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 7:49pm PST


	I don't know what to say about such a situation except what a terrible tragedy that could have been prevented, those children will be traumatized for many years to come as well, thoughts are with you Edited by author Sun Jan 27, '13 7:52pm PST

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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 7:53pm PST


	You really can't get angry with true ignorance. I know plenty of people who truly love dogs but are quite ignorant on a lot of things dog. And it is amazing how dogs generally adapt to fit in even when generally misunderstood. As for talking to them, I wouldn't go out of my way to say anything. That just is never received well, but if a conversation on the topic starts, I'd probably toss in my opinion and be as nice as I can about it. I may be even so keen to bring some points up if they get a new dog, as the topic of dog would then be brought up.

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Miyu CGC

Bow down to the- Princess Brat!

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 9:17pm PST


	I'm so sorry. That is so hard. I think Sanka has the best advice though. Anything unsolicited right now would just fall on deaf ears. They're not in the right place at the moment to receive it, not unless she literally asks you, 'Why?" And maybe she did, and it still fell on deaf ears. I'm with you- if one dog had already told the other off I'd never ever let them off leash and close to each other. Not with just the children watching. They made a grave mistake out of ignorance and both dogs paid the price. I think all you can do right now is grieve, and really just try to guide them the right way when the opportunity arises. Because you know they'll probably get another dog, and as a friend and a dog lover you'll have to try and be there to help.

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Smokey

Let's play tug!!

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 10:11pm PST


	For my edification, can you describe "went after him to tell him off"? Does this mean just a snarl or a growl, or a genuine snarf? Did this happen multiple times? When the "signs became subtle" does this mean that the dogs were not interacting much, but it was tense when they were interacting? Or were they playing together nicely most of the time, but sometimes testy? The more I can understand the situation, the better I can know what to look out for in case I ever see a similar situation.

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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3

Barked: Sun Jan 27, '13 10:34pm PST


	Smokey - I'm not sure on the going after him entirely as I quoted that the way it was said to me. That said, however, from knowing the dog and the owners, I do know that by subtle, it was likely that when she wasn't going after the little dog, they assumed all was fine again, even if the dogs were tense, curling lips, giving other body language signals. They're the types who only see things that are LOUD and CLEAR if you know what I mean(such as making noise or full out attacking, lunging, etc). They said "It got better though and they were fine for a while." which tells me that they didn't see the warning signs that lead up to it. And it's even more likely that by not physically being there, they COULDN'T see the signs and just ASSUMED it was all fine again when it clearly wasn't. Thank you everyone. I've only given advice when they asked, and it does seem to have gone in one ear and out the other.. I'll be leaving it alone, though. I'm hoping that this taught them, and that they make more effort to do better with the puppy in the near future. I still hurt for both of those dogs though.. and I do think that all of this has been cruel enough to everyone involved in it... I hope that the owners learn and do better with future pets... and I hope that this situation never happens again.. It's so sad, and I feel terrible for everyone, including my friends - they lost a beloved dog, and children witnessed a horrible incident that they shouldn't have had to witness.