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Aggression AFTER neuter

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Barked: Thu Dec 20, '12 11:16am PST 
Thanks everyone for your information!
Mulder- I got him from a 'back yard' breeder. She presented herself well and knowledgeable BEFORE met Baron and herself. I never got to see the father (she said her son had the dad and was out of town) but the mother was very sociable docile. She lived on about 100 acres on UN-FENCED property and I have always wondered if she became pregnant by a coyote..sounds funny but I have COUNTLESS people tell me that he looks just like a coyote (the type we have here in Florida). But I haven't gotten a DNA test on him yet...definitely on my list of things to do just because i'm curious. He did come with AKC papers, but that doesn't mean much and I still haven't registered him. I'm not sure about his genetics, I didn't do much research on the breeder (which was a fault on my part) but either way, I ended up with a GREAT dog who listens perfectly, isn't the slightest bit aggressive towards people or children (I have an 1 year old), and would give his life for me. This problem is the only one I've come across, so far.

The Monster
Barked: Thu Dec 20, '12 12:55pm PST 
I'm not the first to say it here, but please don't misconstrue correlation as causation.

Just because the neutering happened roughly before his behaviour changed does not mean that it was the cause of it. My guess is that the behaviour change also coincided with reaching sexual maturity. This often results in a dog becoming dog reactive, or dog selective.

You could also look into reading "Fight!" by Jean Donaldson.

Spooky Mulder
Barked: Thu Dec 20, '12 3:51pm PST 
It is highly unlikely that your dog is mixed with a coyote. Such matings are extremely rare to begin with, never mind that your dog does not physically resemble what these crosses typically look like at all. At least no more than any sable GSD does.

Again, not really knowing the genetic history of the dog, I would treat this as a reactivity issue, one that was probably made worse by the prior... ill advised training approaches.


The Muddy- Princess
Barked: Thu Dec 20, '12 5:40pm PST 
I would not totally discount the neutering. This dog was used to a certain level of testosterone which does give a male confidence (a male is at his highest level of testosterone between 11 and say 15 months). Then with the neuter the testosterone pump is quickly shut off. The dog must feel kind of off, scared due to the lack of testosterone and that can affect his behavior.

I'm like- Einstein only- hairier.
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 12:16am PST 
I personally really enjoy Cesar Millan, I think he has a lot of really good insights. That being said you have to know how to use the techniques without hurting or scaring your dog and which technique to use at which time. As with all dog trainers and techniques though not everything is going to work for everyone 100% of the time.
I agree that you should talk to a reputable trainer/behaviorist who can show you what to do and give you a few pointers on how to handle Baron.

Good Luck!

Edited by author Fri Dec 21, '12 12:18am PST


Spooky Mulder
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 8:02am PST 
There is literally never a reason to alpha roll a dog.

Its bad training based in bad science practiced by bad trainers.

I'm like- Einstein only- hairier.
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 11:40am PST 
@Mulder> I didn't say I agreed with 'alpha rolling' just that I like a lot of Cesar Millan's insights into dog psychology. And that no matter which technique you are applying you have to know how and when to use it. I didn't mean 'alpha rolling' specifically. We're all entitled our own opinions and please respect mine.

Edited by author Fri Dec 21, '12 11:43am PST

Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 12:35pm PST 
You realize that Cesar has proven time and time again that he prefers his dogs to be intimidated by him and that he has proven repeatedly that he can't read dog body language and signals very well.. Right? The no touch, no talk, no eye contact is great and all, as is being calm and assertive. But alpha rolling, the 'bite', the 'TSCCHTT', and all the other load of bull he brings to the table just isn't worth taking into account in my opinion. I'm with Mulder on this. There is NEVER a time to use MOST of the techniques he uses(ie, not just the alpha rolling, but the hand-'bite' he does as well, and the bop with his foot).
Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 2:49pm PST 
a) Not sure why CM comes up here as he is a dominance down, not "on his back." I recommend neither, but there is a distinction. Just a technicality wink, but I saw nothing in the OP's post indicating CM.

b) I agree with Selli, re one can't assume the neuter played NO role. It is perfectly true that neuters are well weathered, but it as not as if the neuter fairy waves a magical wand and the dog now lacks reproductive organs. There are hormonal shifts. This is why if I had to neuter, I would focus on doing so either when the dog was young and puppy-ish, or older. In rescue I of course deal with neutering puppies, in street advice I do so when the dog is nearing his second birthday. Either are preferable, IMO.

3. To the OP, I would be very curious to know this dog's pedigree. You could PM to me if you'd like.

You are not looking at anything unfathomable in terms of this behavior for a GSD getting a little older and entering a teenage phase. So part of this has the potential to fade hormonally in time.

One of the things you can start to do with this is to work on his control and then manage his situations. This is because the initial behavior was what is known as a prey response. For GSDs, it is VERY typical. For some dogs it may be joggers running or bicyclists biking, etc. Here, it was to dogs running past. So you had prey response probably mingled with a little social insecurity. Then you did the "on his back" thing, which now makes him more tense

At home, take a ball (hopefully he likes a ball....if not, say so and we can improvise)and work on a stay using the ball by arousing him then having him hold a stay when he holds position with the ball being thrown. You can do the same dangling a tug in his face and not having him grab it. If he knows commands, build his resiliency. You obviously reward and can eventually let him have his target as well, of course wink Then you can work on these things in more stimulating environments. If you can stage situations, where someone will jog past with their dog, that would be ideal also.

If you work hard, you can get him to drop or stop mid retrieve on your say so. This is where you have the bond to get him to collect himself when he gets riled, and it is a positive association, and thereby doubly beneficial.

Please let me know if you have q's.

Spooky Mulder
Barked: Fri Dec 21, '12 5:12pm PST 
Not sure why CM comes up here as he is a dominance down, not "on his back."

I'm sorry, but what?
You're really going to sit here and say he doesn't flip dogs and hold them down belly up? Is this semantics popping up again?

Look, I wasn't trying to turn this into a CM thread, but where do you honestly think this junk comes from, if not from him or his followers? I have a strong suspicion OP isn't a devotee of the Monks or other such similar sects (though I am more than happy for them prove me wrong on that), so lets not pull that bag over our heads.

PS, establishing dominance over, allowing other dogs to sniff while forced belly-up.... yeah doesn't scream of Cesar AT ALL, what was I thinking naughty

We are looking at a prime example of what this sort of mindset does. You're being kind to play it off so gently... frankly, all outside factors considered (YES age plays a factor, YES neutering plays a factor, YES breed and breed tendencies play a factor), the alpha rolling mess probably escalated a minor, relatively easily fixed problem into straight-up crazy town for this dog.

And you know who that's coming from here- there is no purely positive mindset trying to enforce clicker training behind that opinion.
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