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Saying 'No'

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 6:15am PST 
It is not just to teach a dog it's name, it is to be sure that in that high distraction environment the dog responds immediately, with a reflexive response.

As with any other classically conditioned response, if you don't keep the pairing (ie, if Pavlav had started ringing his bell without feeding the dogs), the reflexive response fades, especially given the number of times we say our dogs name during the day.

Personally, I ALWAYS want to keep that reflexive response strong. If I am going to create a positive interupter, I truly want it to be positive.

My guess is that is why I DON'T need to say "no" as a cue to interrupt a behavior or as an NRM. Of course, if people ARE using "no" as a positive interupter, they SHOULD be doing something very similar, so I am surprised anyone is surprised, unless, of course, their "no" is not truly a positive interupter and is, instead, a conditioned punisher. wave

Lobo, Farley, have fun with it. Nothing like being able to say your dog's name in a high distraction area and have that dog's head WHIP around to see what you want.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 8:32am PST 
I'd rather my dogs just knew their names and responded with a look, a cock of the ears, etc. Their name is a 'thing of interest' to them. I don't generally think of my dog as a bag of reflexes, even though it could be said that we all are.

I'm perfectly happy saying "No" in a non-aversive manner. I generally speak in sentences or phrases to my dogs as Squ'mey does, and often I address my dogs as a unit ('Dogs!" "Animals!")

Several posters said that they don't say "No" to puppies. In light of that, I found this interesting: The First Ten Skills You Should Teach Your Puppy
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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 10:47am PST 
Farley has a great recall and knows and responds to his name just fine. I am more interested in just using this concept in a very high-energy environment with very high distractions, not in every day life, and not even at the dog park.

With Farley's high distractability and excitability in agility, I only have a split second to get his attention back on me when he decided he wants to run off the course to chase another dog (which is higher-value than the course or my treats, despite him being an extremely food-motivated dog). If it works to "snap him out of it", then I don't see a problem with that. Then, if he snaps back around and comes back to me, I can give a jackpot for coming to me instead of chasing after the other dog.

It may not even work, seeing as his brain basically shuts off when he goes into focus and chase mode (which happens in a split second). But it can't hurt to try. I would ideally like to have private lessons but that just isn't going to happen right now.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 11:29am PST 
I think the surprise is THAT many. Most who find no need for something so structured....and the method is dependent on a foodie to start, and/or when he loses interest in food when he is keenly stimulated, particularly true of a puppy brain.....reinforce after compliance, which means no = chance to earn a reinforcer. Which for some puppies isn't food. It may be a bouncing ball. That's what I use often (dependent on the dog). The bounce of the ball clicks the prey response so they will hard focus focus and now need to do something to get the ball.

Farley, Asher's is a good method to try. I wish you good luck. The ball is good too (one of those tennis balls) and also primes the dog for transitions in response to the no.
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G2

Be Scaredy of- Me, Dawg!		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 11:54am PST 
"I'd rather my dogs just knew their names and responded with a look, a cock of the ears, etc."

Exactly. G2's "whipping his head around" and coming to me when I unfortunately said his name during the last NALC treeing trial DQed him in that event and cost him high/reserve high point male at the show. My mistake, not his, and not a good thing - and you don't get much more high distraction than an NALC show with treeing, baying, and cattle herding all going on. I want my dogs to hear their names & wait for what is to follow.
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Lupi

I\\\'ll do- anything for a- treat!		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 12:45pm PST 
I think it's quite obvious Asher's not talking about 5000 reps in your living-room. If you truly want to condition an automatic response to their name, it's valuable to practice in many different areas with varying distractions.
To me that is what proofing means. Lupi has, by far, the most reliable response to her name out of any other dog I know. And it has proven extremely handy; possibly life-saving at times. I don't require her to come to me, simply to immediately make eye-contact and wait for the next cue.
As far as number of reps needed, that would depend on the dog's natural responsiveness as well as the variety of locations you plan on taking your dog. However, since one of the biggest mistakes people seem to make is assuming their dog will respond to a cue everywhere just because he responds well at home, it seems wise to err on the side of caution.
When I was working with Lupi on her reactions to bikes/rollerblades/skateboards while on walks, I asked our trainer when I should start fading out the food rewards. Her reply was to wait until Lupi was reacting appropriately 100% of the time. And then to double the length of time that had taken. It might seem like over-kill (I sort of thought so!) but it has made her feel COMPLETELY differently about those things. Even
when I'm not the one walking her, she now ignores skateboards etc, and needs no reward for doing so.
With the name game and any other cues I've taught Lupi, I've always used her kibble to teach her initially. The dog needs to eat anyway, so why not get the most benefit you can from it?
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 1:35pm PST 
"I think it's quite obvious Asher's not talking about 5000 reps in your living-room. If you truly want to condition an automatic response to their name, it's valuable to practice in many different areas with varying distractions."

Thank you, Lupi. That's what I got out of it, too. Obviously she's not talking about sitting in your living room and counting out the times you say your dog's name.

I hate how I'm seeing sarcastic remarks and people poking fun. Just because you aren't educated on the subject doesn't mean you should poke fun at it. It only shows immaturity. But, hey, whatever. I'm only eighteen. What do I know of maturity?

Anyway, I agree. Dogs ARE a lot smarter than we give them credit for. So why is it so hard for some to train without using corrections? If people can do it with human children - human children with autism - then why is it so difficult with dogs? I think that says something about our human minds, personally. (And I'm not trying to insult anyone; I have myself included in this)
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Member Since
12/31/1969		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 1:46pm PST 
who said anything about living rooms? having to count to 5,000 in a variety of locations would still present the same issue of keeping track of humongous amounts of repetitions. curious as to where the actual number comes from, really. or do we just like big numbers?
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 1:50pm PST 
I think it's sort of demeaning to autistic children to compare them to dogs.thinking
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD		 
 
Barked: Thu Nov 29, '12 2:10pm PST 
"So why is it so hard for some to train without using corrections? If people can do it with human children - human children with autism - then why is it so difficult with dogs? "
I work in children's mental health & have years of frontline experience on an in-patient unit. Upon admission, every child is assigned a ratio..of discipline to nurturance. Every child, regardless of diagnosis needs BOTH. An anxiety child might be 20:80..so less discipline, more nurturing approach is taken. An ADHD child might be 80:20...more structure, less nurturing. That includes autistic children. Even today, doing extensive Applied Behavioural Analysis, corrections are used. After running a set of discrete trials, feedback & corrections take place. I'm not talking about corporal punishment, but a simple "no, that is incorrect. This is the answer" Or a time out for aggression, followed by..dare I say it..a correction...on how to cope next time.
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