GO!

Dangerous and capable. Severe aggression help.

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

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Stella- "Blue"

Puttin' my freak- on!
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 12:47pm PST 
Oh my, absolutely look into Great Companions if you are that close. I was at wits end with my neurotic dog. Ali and crew have absolutely changed my relationship with my dogs, and helped me help her through some pretty intense issues. We are still and will always be a work in progress, but I've learned how to manage what can't be fixed (you can't FIX fearfulness when it is a personality trait, but you can teach coping skills, which at least helps build some confidence and expand a fearful dogs world, for example.). My pups issues are different than yours, but I have seen all kinds of behavioral issues addressed during my time there. Ali is great for thinking outside the box, evaluating approaches based on the dogs, and keeps it all positive, really helping to set the owner and pup up for success.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 1:12pm PST 
This dog is not fearful and that is all I will say. Or reactive. If so, wouldn't have gotten a positive response with a little leash work and out time. But the OP is obviously an intelligent and enlightened thinker and I trust her to make the right decisions on her own. Whatever that may be. I've said my peace and given good foundational work to do in the meantime.

Re the current episode, OP, it is a mystery, but I would think spider. That actually happened to ME. In the dead of winter. Just one itch on my scalp, and making a long story really short, welts formed everywhere near, then my face started to swell so badly that I couldn't open my eyes the next morning. Time for me to go to the ER laugh out loud I think all my antihistamines made me brain stupid.

You might want to ask your vet if you could have an injection of Epinephrine handy, due to this strong allergic response. Just to be on the safe side should this happen again or more seriously.
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Missy

Miss- Pig!
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 1:44pm PST 
Why is he not fearful when any other dog with the same issues would be described as such? What about a tiny JRT showing the exact same behaviour, including bites? Insecure or what?

Isn't resource guarding the fear or insecurity of having that highly valuable resource taken away?

If anything i'd say a great deal of his issues are health related. Which is why i said those issues should be managed first before jumping in and starting all kinds of training methods that could possibly be the wrong way forward.

ETA; I don't mean my post to come across argumentative, but i'm genuinly interested. Is it just because of his breed? thinking

Edited by author Wed Nov 21, '12 2:01pm PST

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Bon Temps

Super hard robot- puma dog
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 2:38pm PST 
Regardless of who the trainer is, they best know something about this specific breed in order to work with them effectively. These are dogs that, as before mention,are frequently used as catch dogs in hog hunting. They are tough, fearless, and all the things that go along with being willing to grab a 300 lb feral hog by the ear & hang on until a hunter gets there. Of course there are varying levels of intensity, that goes without saying - but a training course which would work with a Corgi, Golden, GSD, or many of the other breeds usually seen as pets, could very easily be ineffective at best.
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Titus

Cave canis- vigilo omnis
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 2:45pm PST 
Like Guest, I recommend a veterinary behaviorist. Trainers and behavior consultants don't really have the education or background to deal with a seriously aggressive dog, IMO, and there's not a lot of room for error here.

Best wishes to you and Atlas!
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 3:45pm PST 
I was not directing anything at you per se, Stella. Perhaps to the world. I dunno.

If you have heart for your dog...and I am sure you do....I have heart for this breed. Who I have seen ruined to the euth room with the best of intentions. It is that I have been there. Everyone here is always talking about their personal experiences. That''s great....and I do not mean that sarcastically. I feel that. I get that. But I also get this, and have my experiences also. I know what is going on. I know what not only can be done right (and there are several options), but I also know what can be done wrong. And the results are very sad. I have personal pain attached to this and a promise to a dog, my beloved Starvin Marvin. Who brought himself out of a zone where he had just given up on life, ceased eating. We made it through together, and it came to a bad ending post adoption.

Some think I argue here. I don't. I don't say half of what I could, or challenge half of what I can. No point to. It's abrasive, and that is not my aim. But this is personal. This is about a promise. I will not dismiss anyone here, but I also will sentry this thread. Because I have to. HAVE to. On a deeply personal level.

Some have those levels, too. But they have not had this dog. I have. I know what fails. A drive stemmed issue can be fixed entirely, or it can make the dog too much of a life threatening potential to continue with.

Moreover, I not only have my AB experiences. I have experiences of a massive DA dog bringing my own pet very close to death. I have no tolerance at all for a dog with that sort of force potential being loose in the community. These issues get FIXED, or I am not doing much service to my Hatteras, either.

I do not feel Ali is right for this dog. If "no" is bad and "reactive" is some all encompassing catch phrase, no way and no how. I am sure she is good at what she does, but I have yet to see a trainer skilled at everything, and with such an ideology her approaches are inherently limited. Canine genetics are way too diverse.

@ Missy....I do not feel you are being argumentative. I can answer your question. Surfacely, a JRT may show the same responses, but they likely are not. JRTs are very low nerved, ABs have extraordinarily high nerves. If this dog was showing low nerves, whole different ball game. Then perhaps Ali's approach might serve better. But that his nerves are high, and that his history shows a highly operant dog, his potential for a complete recovery are very off the charts. Aspects Ali does not work with. Those are potentials gone to waste. Not all dogs have them. I can put Tiller around a highly aggressing dog and he won't flinch. Duncan has seen that. So I have witnesses laugh out loud That is nerves coupled with training. It's not that he won't and can't. With Chachi baiting him all the time one time Tiller got past me, ran down the stairs and tarred him a bit. Body slammed him. Could have killed him, but didn't lay a tooth on Chachi. Only Tiller was bleeding. Again, that is nerves. Needing to show his strength with no impulse to use his teeth. That is nerves. 100% operant, not wanting to harm, just wanting to assert. That is why some people are all over dogs like this. I will always prefer high nerves for how far they can take you, but not all dogs qualify. I wouldn't expect such things from my Cockers on a bet, which is why they are R trained. I work with what I have. Always. I appreciate all training approaches. Always. Don't think I don't, unless it is important to you that it is. If I need to be wrong in order for you to be right, in which case I'd think you do need to question yourself, as I do not feel such way of you. The breed you are thinking of needs structure, leadership, and "NO." If you can find your way around such things, I say rock on. If you can't, I would hope you have the sense to seek alternative options other than drugging your dog because you are "kinder and gentler." Sometimes one can get lost in their own forest. An open mind is a good thing.

ABs, as I am sure Cain will attest, have both a kill instinct and a terrifically hard bite. People who work with little dogs can't even see this. My Philo, a GSD, once bit me by accident, for less than two seconds, and released as soon as I yelled his name. In that very slight incident, my arm was broken. That won't surprise Cain either....that's why helpers need to wear thick suits. If an AB flips into a true fight instinct (referencing here fight or flight), the amount of damage that would occur would be catastrophic. That no one has needed to go to the hospital due to these outbursts signifies a dog who is full control of his responses. This opens up the gate for training that utilizes those nerves for a full control, which not only will lead him to a full and unrestricted life...something Ali's very lingo on her site does not offer.....but also prevent some tragedy befalling another Hatteras on the street.

You work with what you have. When you have nerves, you use them. They are GOLD. When you have drive to channel, you use that. When you have exercise, outings and walks that can totally level a dog out....which this dog has already indicated....you use that, too. If they aren't there, they aren't there. Or even when they are and do not suit, you need to think wider. Would I use a tight R structure if it suited? Sure! But this dog is showing a measured response. Nerves intact....you flow with that, for he has far more potential than an inoperant dog. Operant or inoperant to me are very dynamic points.

Here is an article that deals with some of these issues. Destined to go over like a lead balloon with some, but it is not as only the ignorant would agree with what I am saying.

Edited by author Wed Nov 21, '12 3:47pm PST

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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 4:03pm PST 
Hey, great article. I liked it so much I even reposted it on FB, lol.

For the record, I also agree that I don't think this is a fear issue, that Atlas is in a clear head and this has more to do with his breed and drive. And that he does sound high nerved to me as well. For what my opinion is worth, anyway. laugh out loud

Ok, carry on. smile
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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 4:40pm PST 
Very interesting article, Tiller. It makes me think of a bit of Tom Dorrance's explanation (and I'm paraphrasing) of how a horse's trust works-- he has to believe that you understand, truly understand his need for self-preservation in order to trust what you're asking of him . . .. once he is convinced of that he will work to the gates of hell and back for you . . . .
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Farley

Farlekiin the- Dragonborn
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 4:40pm PST 
Tiller applause
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 21, '12 5:50pm PST 
Addendum, in the spirit of Dogster land and its community sense of all our beloved pooches! Regarding THIS -

" I can put Tiller around a highly aggressing dog and he won't flinch. Duncan has seen that. So I have witnesses laugh out loud That is nerves coupled with training. It's not that he won't and can't. With Chachi baiting him all the time one time Tiller got past me, ran down the stairs and tarred him a bit. Body slammed him. Could have killed him, but didn't lay a tooth on Chachi. Only Tiller was bleeding. Again, that is nerves. Needing to show his strength with no impulse to use his teeth. That is nerves."


Not meaning to in any way offend Chachi's honor, or that of his momma Duncan laugh out loud, who felt from the above excerpt that there would be some conclusion that I would consider Chachi "highly aggressing," which I am giggling as I type. As IF big laugh

The "highly aggressing" refers to such as the DA Malamute and current Pit Bull in Southpaws' care that Tiller has been used to proof. And the myriad of shelter and rescue dogs he was used to proof who deserve their titles as true DA. He'll be erect, but never prod. Never bark, lunge or respond...just composed and sure.

Chachi, on the contrary, is the "naughty one." He who likes to rile from behind the window or fence because he gets to be big man and it makes him feel jazzy and proud. Like a herding dog thing laugh out loud Tiller is exposed to this fairly regularly, walking down the stairs past Chachi's door, in front of his window, in front of his yard. Chachi domain. A day would come where I was a little tired on sleep and the Giant shook past me, with Chachi doing his normal naughty dog dance at the bottom of the stairs.....

"Ha ha, you can't get me......"

and then

"Uh oh" as Tiller came barreling down the stairs. laugh out loud

Tiller body pinned Chachi....a Giant classic.....brought him no harm and was made to sit and apologize. Momma Duncan, worrying that poor Chachi was in trauma took him off for a weekend in Vermont. To which I smiled...."what a life THAT dog has" laugh out loud He just had a fine time! Get in a no harm done tussle, saw Tiller made to sit before his presence, and now gets to go to Vermont!

And so it remains to this day, that Chachi is the king of his castle. Giving Tiller the evil eye through the window. Tries to sneak upstairs while I am babysitting Duncan's daughter.

Because he is naughty. Not "highly aggerssing." He's a lover boy and a scamp. Sort of the wit at this two family castle.

And Tiller is a bar cruising gentleman, at the end of the day. Sort of the dumb jock to Chachi's naughty elf, if you will.
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