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Pulling on a Lead

This is a place to gain some understanding of dog behavior and to assist people in training their dogs and dealing with common behavior problems, regardless of the method(s) used. This can cover the spectrum from non-aversive to traditional methods of dog training. There are many ways to train a dog. Please avoid aggressive responses, and counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice. Please refrain from submitting posts that promote off-topic discussions. Keep in mind that you may be receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a trainer or behaviorist!

  
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Squ'mey

too old to eat- any more KD
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 8:34pm PST 
Jocie..I'm not sure what your intent is here? Are you trying to drum up business for your trainer? Are you a new dog owner who has been taken in by his shtick? You will not change anyone's mind here. To use a choke chain on such a tiny sweet dog is abhorrent to most of us here.
I have a 95 pound gsd who can be randomly aggressive. What do I use on him? A plain flat collar that is so loose he actually backed out of it the other day. Oh and I also walk my 70 pound dog at the same time..on a flat collar. I do use some corrections..but never while training..only during proofing. And if i take my friend's bullmastiff..she too is on a flat collar. That adds up to over 250 pounds of dog to my 100 pounds.
I went to your *trainer's website.... frown
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 27, '12 8:47pm PST 
I'm with Squam, a choke on a little pap is quite frankly nuts. The breed is a people pleaser. I also went to your 'trainer's' page, and frankly, I wasn't impressed. The recalls in these videos were sloppy, and the dogs looked positively miserable.
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 1:24am PST 
Agreed with Squ'mey and JT.

I watched the videos on your trainer's website. The dogs were miserable, unhappy, and only doing it to avoid pain. I've seen dogs do obedience who were actually happy.

JT, I was thinking just that! I watched them both and I was like, "Is that normal?..." I don't know why the recalls struck out so much, but they really made my heart bleed. Plus, there was absolutely no joy in those dogs' eyes. It would kill me if Lobo looked like that during training. I wouldn't care if Lobo never listened to a single thing I said; if he wasn't happy and enjoying work, it's not worth it to me. Thankfully, I know how to motivate my dog without resorting to physical punishment.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 2:33am PST 
The 'come' was sycophantic. Slow, wonky returns with calming signals coming out the wazoo. You don't need fear to control a dog, firmness maybe, I'm firm, but not intimidating. I don't want a stilted recall! My dog runs to me and goes into a sit and I didn't have to jerk on a leash to get it.

Fear and respect get mixed up too much. shrug
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 5:04am PST 
not even firmness. A dog will respond to the cue the way you train it. If you arways use loud or firm stays/down/comes/etc, that will be your dog's cue. If you train them in a soft voice, they will respond to a soft voice.

I have been told by judge's I have one of the softest "Down on recalls" they have ever heard. That is because I trained the drop to a soft cue.

I heard the woman in one of those videos using a stern voice for the stay. Not needed.

I also saw a LOT of stress behaviors in those dogs. Heads low. No focus while heeling. Stress licks. Low, rapid tail wags. It made me quite sad.

And it makes me sad for the people in the class too as they are probably being told that they HAVE to do this to get that level of compliance.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 5:46am PST 
I always favored a strong clear voice but it does depend on the dog you are working with too. Mine came from a background of having commands called across a paddock so that was what I just went on with. I use hand signals as well. We run through the obedience courses set out in a rally book I got and I don't bother say anything, that's not needed. When I bring out the exercise ball and ask him to walk up, back up, come behind etc. I use my 'sheepdog' voice. It gets him excited for the game. But no, I don't use a mean voice intended to intimidate, that's just silly and pretty much guarantees a bad performance from the dog.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 6:44am PST 
I use loud too when my dogs are further away. But we don't have to be stern or forceful to be loud. Sounds like you use a happy, loud voice, JT.
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Lobo

"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 1:35pm PST 
I had a conversation with someone who's actually really into child development about that whole "firm" thing. I don't believe it's necessary, even for children. I tested it out on my brother (eight years old, dyslexic) and he responds better when a) It's been "positively reinforced" and b) I'm not yelling at him. If I don't allow him something, I explain to him WHY I don't allow it. When he's whining for certain things, I ignore him. When he's not even thinking about it, I give it to him. I basically did the same thing I did with Lobo. (Including no time-outs. Lobo has separation anxiety, so I can't give him time outs. My brother freaks out when he's left alone, too)

And it worked! I admit, I was sort of shocked, considering everyone I've ever talked to who has anything to do with children say that they need firm discipline. It's only been about two weeks, though. I'll have to continue my "test" lol.
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 2:00pm PST 
Josie, I started training in the 60's and 70's as well as your trainer. The difference is, I ditched my chokes and prongs when I realized that my dogs were responding because they feared me and my reactions to them if they were slow or did something else wrong.
Now, my dogs ARE happy and healthy and they respond to me BECAUSE we are partners and share a relationship where there is NO FEAR and NO INTIMIDATION at all. My dogs pick up new commands instantly and never need corrections because they are not lagging out of fear of those leash pops.
Nearly every dog I own has at the very least a Companion Dog degree from the AKC shows, and they all earned those titles by being trained with praise and respect, not with jerks and threats and choking. I also received comments about how happy and relaxed my dogs were while working from almost every judge I showed under.
If and when they made a mistake, I DID NOT correct them with anger and harsh jerks and pops. I assumed (usually, rightly), that I had either not made myself clear with what I wanted OR that there was some other factor affecting their response such as nervousness from the show, etc.
I was taught (and I believe) the biggest difference between me and my dog at a show is that the I know why I am there and while my dog has no clue, he trusts me that I know why I am there.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 28, '12 3:20pm PST 
Toto, applause

The best among us do not sit on our laurels, but continue to learn.

BTW, clicker training for people is called Tag Teaching and it is VERY effective.
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