Postings by My Family


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Behavior & Training > Neighbor hit or tried to hit my pup

Let's play!
Barked: Thu Nov 26, '09 7:00pm PST 
I agree this guy sounds like a flake. As for him suing you don't worry about that for a minute. Even if he did sue you and even if he did win (and I think there's a snowball's chance in you know where that would happen) he isn't going to get anything. Awards in small claim court are usually limited to the value of the item when it was destroyed not when it was new. I wouldn't pay more than $5 - $10 for a worn jacket at a yard sale and that is likely what any judge would go by in awarding damages. If the jacket was already well worn then it isn't worth what it would cost to file the lawsuit.

Personally if someone asked me in a similar situation "what if my dog tore their jacket" I'd tell them that was exactly why they shouldn't be encouraging that behavior. Now if that happened and he hit my dog I'd be picking up pieces of him from all over my house. He's lucky Pea is such a nice dog. laugh out loud
» There has since been 5 posts. Last posting by , Nov 28 5:33 pm

Behavior & Training > Please take him back! [rant]

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Barked: Thu Nov 26, '09 4:51pm PST 
That's what anybody that complains about him should do, Sallie. way to go

As my favorite bulldog on Dogster says, Hugs & Farts.

And I've said my piece.

PS Regardless of how TV ratings work, the man still has feelings.

That's what I say too. If you don't like him don't watch him. It's that simple. No matter what however when you become as popular and well known as CM is you have to develop a very thick skin. I imagine he sometimes cries about all the things people say about him while he's on the way to the bank to deposit his latest million dollars. Actually one of the things I respect most about the guy is that he refrains from criticizing other TV trainers even when pushed in an interview. I have a lot of respect for anyone confident enough in their own abilities that they don't feel the need to attack other people's methods. Whether I agree with his techniques or not that puts him well ahead of the others in my book. Look what a behind VS made of herself at just the mention of CM. She lost a lot of credibility in my eyes with that little tirade.

If you hang around here for a while you'll see the same mesages come up again and again in the CM threads. If we watch him we get told to change the channel. If we don't watch him we get told that we cannot possibly know what we are talking about when we criticize him. If we bother to criticize him because we believe him to influence people's approach with their dogs, we get told that the people who try to emulate him are all idiots and that it's just a show anyway. If we discredit him (in terms of his methods but also his training - meaning his own credentials and education) we get told that he rehabilitates dogs (so now it's no longer just a show).

I've been around Dogster long enough and seen enough CM threads to know that both sides of the debate get in enough shots at the other that nobody has any call to play that card no matter what side of the debate you are on. Besides it's a debate. You get farther with a reasoned coherent factual argument than from a personal attack against someone who happens to have a different opinion.

I was just wondering why anyone would keep watching a trainer they disliked.

Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you can't learn something from them even if it's what NOT to do. Personally I like to watch them all. What I don't like I don't worry about. What I do like I learn from. Take what you like and leave the rest. I don't like VS (Victoria Stillwell, "It's Me or The Dog"). She uses aversives that I disagree with but that doesn't mean I can't learn other things from her show.

I agree about that Posh, far to much talk of disliked trainers then trainers that are well liked.

Now that statement I like. I've asked that before in Cesar threads. Instead of talking about what we don't like or agree on why not talk about what we do like about TV trainers and agree with. Of course there is that old saying about dog trainers, "The only thing you can get two dog trainers to agree on is that a third trainer is wrong". laugh out loud

They mention watching Cesar's show and ask me "don't I need to assert my dominance over my dog?"

What I would tell those people is that they are getting Cesar all wrong. You do assert your dominance when you take the dog walking and it goes where you go, when you teach a dog a better behavior or when you set limits and expectations. That's leadership. The idea isn't to make the dog afraid of you the idea is to gain your dog's trust and respect and that can be done by a lot of methods. People get carried away by the flashy stuff on the DW and miss the real meat of the show. That's why CM works with the owners more than the dog. It's the owners who failed to set limits for their dog and now CM has to use a lot more force than if the dog had been raised with limits and expectations. Could he do it differently? Of course he could but he has his way and I have mine. The bottom line is that a dog who is raised with clear rules will have less problems than one who is allowed to walk all over it's owners. The alpha rolls and tsst'ing are the half time show. You can't watch only the half time show and come away with an understanding of the whole game. Sorry been watching too much football today. laugh out loud

Molly says to bring on the cockatoos but I don't think she would have room for one after all the turkey she's had today. laugh out loud
» There has since been 91 posts. Last posting by , Nov 29 7:37 pm

Behavior & Training > Cesar Millan on raising children...


Let's play!
Barked: Wed Nov 25, '09 8:25pm PST 
I remember reading somewhere that at certain age (young), children are essentially be blunt. They do things because it's what they want to do, not because it's right or because they were told to do so.

You are thinking about Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development. In the preconventional stage children first stage is punishment centered as in "It's wrong because I'll get punished if I do it" or "It's wrong because mommy and daddy don't want me to do that". Later they move on to self motivation such as "What's in it for me?"

Kohlberg measured the stages by asking questions that pose a delimma. One of the questions he asked adults is that a loved one is very sick and will die without medication but the medicine is too expensive. Is it wrong to steal the medicine to save a loved one's life in that scenario? From there it gets into a lot of Thoreau and social contract stuff. Bottom line is that in this stage people feel that stealing is wrong all in all but when an overriding emergency happens rules can be broken for the greater good. In other words law serves the people, the people don't serve the law.

Kholberg also had a 7th stage but only him and a few of his favorite graduate students ever qualified for it so most psychologists discount that one. laugh out loud

Dogs are usually stuck in the first developmental stages. This also is where dogs score on tests of mental ability (about the level of a two to four year old child). Puppies are in the first stage where it's wrong because they will be punished. Older or more mature dogs are at "What's in it for me". That's why PR training works so well.

The sad thing is that many adults don't get much past the first two stages. "It's wrong because I'll get caught". If getting caught isn't probable they don't see anything wrong. So in other words many humans aren't much beyond a dog in moral development.
» There has since been -19922 posts. Last posting by , Nov 25 8:25 pm

Behavior & Training > Clicker Training--Share!


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Barked: Tue Nov 24, '09 9:44pm PST 
Also it's believed that the click from a clicker activates a different part of the brain that a marker word doesn't. I don't know about that but it is a clean unambiguous sound that isn't likely to get confused with other words. That aside I've done marker training for years without a clicker just using a word for a marker and it's worked quite well for me.
» There has since been 15 posts. Last posting by , Nov 26 2:00 pm

Behavior & Training > big problem


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Barked: Tue Nov 24, '09 9:36pm PST 
No a thyroid panel isn't part of a normal vet check. You will have to have blood drawn and a thyroid panel done. Others here can probably give you a better idea of what to look for in a thyroid test and what particular tests they should do.

It's a controversial topic but some cockers are supposedly subject to a "rage" disorder that makes them unpredictable. The only way this can be detected is by genetics (meaning one of the parents or siblings have shown the disorder) so it might be hard to diagnose in your dog.

That aside I second the recommendation of a full vet check, strict NILF and management like crating or muzzling when you can't watch the dog or have company over.
» There has since been 14 posts. Last posting by , Nov 26 10:14 pm

Behavior & Training > Cesar Millan on raising children...

Let's play!
Barked: Tue Nov 24, '09 9:27pm PST 
honestly to me raising dogs and kids is not really that different(well your kid won't chew your couch up!).

No they USUALLY won't chew your couch up but they will leave peanut butter, jam and Kool Aid all over it in addition to other things that are unidentifiable and that you probably won't want to identify anyway. laugh out loud

I like to stick to the simple philosophy when it comes to both dogs and kids so that works almost equally well for both. Keep them from killing themselves, teach them to be polite and don't let them piddle on the rug. Dog's are OK on that last some kids well you know how kids are. laugh out loud

I do think CM has a point there. Way too many American kids are spoiled rotten with parents who don't have a clue who just give them everything they want. Honestly does a nine year old need a fully functioning cell phone? They give the kids everything anyone would want in material things. Probably more than any sane person would want yet they totally skip what the kids need emotionally and mentally.

Then there are the parents who are so cautious their kids never learn how to take care of themselves. Then these sheltered kids hit 18 and go to college and suddenly they have no supervision at all with access to alcohol and drugs suddenly. Or the kids who never learn how to handle money. Credit card companies are ready and waiting to take advantage of these kids and next thing you know you have a 19 year old with $50,000 CC debt. Even the best of kids have to learn responsibility through practice. It doesn't come automatically when a person hits their 18th birthday.

In addition (as all the PR trainers will tell you) the theory is the same. Reward good behavior. Ignore or correct bad behavior. It's all the same thing whether it's dogs or human kids. The only difference is that dogs will react like dogs and humans will react like humans. The biggest difference is that with kids you can explain your decisions and why you chose that. Dogs on the other hand you have to show them. Oh and alpha rolls don't work well on dogs or kids. They tick dogs off and kids just think you are playing. laugh out loud

Not many kids have a phobia of school. There's a slight difference between phobia and fear. I imagine there are some kids out there with a real, die-hard phobia of school. But I don't imagine there are many.

Personally if my kid were TRULY afraid of school, I would try and figure out why. And, honestly, I'm not sure I would force him to go. Not without trying to figure out why he is. Then, after working with him on the fear, I would get him back into public school. There is home school, after all. And believe me, someone with a real phobia could actually be traumatized if you forced said phobia on them. I'd know.

ETA: If it were just a fear of school, I might force the kid to go, yeah. Because a fear isn't as bad as a phobia.

I knew a lady who's 7 year old vomited every day before the school bus came. No medical reason. The kid was having a hard time keeping up in class and school just became a huge chore for him and he wasn't getting any rewards for going and trying to keep up. Some help and time however and it all cleared up. I'm like you however, I'd be finding out what is causing the fear. Of course I'd try to find that out with a dog also. I guess that would be one point where kids are easier. You can ask them what's wrong and with persistence they will usually tell you. Dogs can't so it's all guess work. Actually after thinking about it dogs are probably harder to raise than kids. At least kids will give you feedback.

Just hijacking this question which wasn't for me. My daughter has been afraid of school. My first question was why? Turns out a child that sat next to her at school and calling her 'slow', she has ADD, so its hard for her to concentate on a task, sometimes she takes longer to do tasks. I spoke to the teacher and the whole class had a talk on ADD, the boy in particular was talked to about name calling, and my daughter got to move seats.

Just like in the case I mentioned above except back then most teachers would tell you that ADD is only a theory and the kid in question just needs a little more "motivation applied to his back side".

But I wouldn't change the basic idea that the kids could always argue with me or tell me if they thought I was doing something wrong. Sure, if push comes to shove, just as with our boy on his walks, I call the shots, but most of the time the idea is to give the kids - human or canine - as much freedom as possible.

I like that statement. Both dogs and kids need freedom. That's how they learn responsibility. You let them have some freedom to see how they handle it. Over time they learn they can take care of themselves even when not being directly supervised.

I've always had that agreement with any kids I've been in charge of. I ask them to do what they are told but if they want to question it afterwords then that's fine and I'll discuss it as much as they want. It's the discussion where they learn decision making skills. Now there is a time and place however for discussion.

I tried to check out the study but all I get is this:

The page you are looking for may have moved or is currently under construction.

I understand statistics but I also understand IQ testing. I'm always skeptical about research based on IQ testing. Early IQ tests only predicted how well a white middle class student would do in a white middle class school. More recently other versions of the tests have normalized the samples as to race and social status but educators and psychologists still consider IQ testing only a very general indicator of future performance. They are much better as a diagnostic device but this was an unplanned bonus. Not what IQ tests were designed for.

I've seen other studies like the one you linked however and one of the questions about those is cause and effect. Did the people in the study have antisocial habits that prompted more spankings or did the spankings cause the antisocial behaviors? They also don't address whether the person was in an abusive situation. I personally believe that concerned parents who spank their kids as a last resort like some others are talking about here will cause less (if any) damage than parents who beat their kids every day because they MIGHT have done something to deserve it.
» There has since been 23 posts. Last posting by , Nov 25 8:25 pm

Behavior & Training > Should I say something about Cesar's methods?


Let's play!
Barked: Mon Nov 23, '09 4:22pm PST 
I like the puppy and I don't want her banned from work. In fact, I don't even think she's that disruptive. She doesn't bark or anything. She just wants to play all the time.

But I find the alpha rolls (and resulting growls and the coworker's frustration) disturbing.

So she is alpha rolling a puppy because it's playing. I too think Cesar would poke the owner here instead of the dog. Puppies play. That's their job. Puppies use play to explore the world.

This puppy is a baby still. Would you paddle a baby for crawling across the floor and putting a pencil in is it's mouth? No, you would take the pencil out of it's mouth and give it a pacifier.

If she truly believes in CM's methods then she isn't applying them correctly. What she's doing is like beating your kids for running in the house or playing their music too loud. Like Junior pointed out an alpha roll is the ultimate punishment. It's telling the dog that, "Your life is about to end". It's not something that you would do to a puppy.

If you will watch a mother dog with puppies you will never see her alpha roll a puppy. Correction bites are used but those are for severe infractions. Except for those severe infractions puppies are allowed to get away with almost anything short of murder. A lot of dog people call this a, "puppy license". Only when the puppies are entering adolescence do the rules really start to apply. Until then adult dogs just moan and "take it" when it comes to puppies playing.
» There has since been 4 posts. Last posting by , Nov 23 7:21 pm

Behavior & Training > Pointing in non-pointer breeds?


Let's play!
Barked: Sun Nov 22, '09 6:10pm PST 
Well it had to come from somewhere. All these breed and dog specific behaviors were there from the beginning. Breeding only brings out the traits that are already present. You can't invent instinctive behavior.

Pointers have been bred specifically to bring out that behavior so we see that very strong in that breed but any breed even pit bulls have it in them because it was originally in the dogs man first domesticated.
» There has since been 1 post. Last posting by , Nov 23 9:40 am

Behavior & Training > Condo wanted to require muzzle on "scary dogs"....


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Barked: Sat Nov 21, '09 11:07am PST 
Suggest they base the policy on behavior not looks. If a dog barks and lunges at a person or another animal then the dog has to wear a muzzle in public areas. That gets by the problem of identifying "scary dogs" and protects people from the dogs they need protecting from. If it's her dog that fits that description then so be it.
» There has since been 0 posts. Last posting by , Nov 21 11:07 am

Behavior & Training > My little man!

Let's play!
Barked: Fri Nov 20, '09 4:07pm PST 
Congrats Ash. applause Don't you love it when a plan comes together?

Duppy, I'm not sure where you are going here. What you are saying is true. Asher isn't 100% safe. No dog is 100% safe nor is anything in life. There is only levels of risk and life is balancing risk against benefits. HA in dogs is like alcoholism. There is no "cure" it can only be managed day by day but to steal one directly from Dr. Phil, "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior". That's what Asher's mom was celebrating. You wouldn't deny an alcoholic an "atta boy" for one year of sobriety or five or ten. I do think you have some valid points and I'd be glad to debate it in another thread.

Asher's mom has already admitted that she made a mistake in handling: It was all really poor management on my part. The baby was supposed to play with the toy in the livingroom. When he brought it in the kitchen, I should have stopped what I was doing and taken him back out.

What she's celebrating is the fact that while she made a mistake Asher didn't. party
» There has since been 21 posts. Last posting by , Nov 23 11:40 am

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