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Sabre
All the sticks- belong to me... |
 | | Barked: Wed Nov 4, '09 3:37am PST | |  | |  | | Still Sabre has issues with being touched and restrained, especially by or around strangers. He's having trouble with his eye so we brought him to the new place, much friendlier overall. He did terrible!! No exam, they couldn't get near him. Then the kicker, first time seeing him and the doctor brings up behavior modification meds. She also wondered if he was guarding me and would do better without me there. I think he clearly understands that someone is trying to do something to him and gets afraid. I'm pretty sure he knows they're not after me. I still like the new place and she wasn't pushy, but I just can't believe that after seeing him all of one time that she could suggest that is the solution. I told her how well he does outside of the exam room. ugh. He's yet to be really examined except at his neutering and very tiny puppy visits. I don't know what else to do to get him over this particular fear besides what we've done. He was on xanax for the visit but it certainly didn't take the edge off for my fraidy dog. |  |  | |  |
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Mika
as long as they- think they're- the boss
 |
 | | Barked: Thu Nov 5, '09 8:34am PST | | | | | | I'm sorry you're still having fear issues with Sabre, but why don't you try what the new vet suggested? My akita /shep mix loved our
vet but we discovered she was a little more likely to react badly to
the techs etc.. if I was holding her leash and I think part of it was my
fear that she would do something inappropriate after the female intern I mentioned smacked her on the nose. After that incident I
refused to ever hold her leash or whatever when we took her to the
vet and we never had another incident. So, I really hate to ask,but could you have been so upset by the first vet and staff telling you that he had severe fear agression and would need intensive training to ever possibly be a safe family pet be bothering you and then the
following repeated problems be reinforcing your fear,then that tension and fear being communicated to him causing him distress and making him feel you need him to protect you? Just a thought.
If you have the fear that things are going to go badly,they probably
will. Maybe if you do a little work on his fear in general and take him for frequent visits just to the office of the new vet frequently until it's a familiar place and even take him into an exam room when you're there and get the staff to pet him and nothing bad happens you will relax and so will he then you can continue with tougher challenges for him like getting him to "shake "with the staff and also
make him allow you to touch him in different ways that the vet would,then have others such as Beau and Scouts parents do the same until he relearns that the vet is not a bad person and not going to hurt him. One other thing ,try to always have vet,staff,etc.. approach him from the front first. Neither ,Mattie or Mika ever liked being approached from the rear,It made Mattie and makes Mika very nervous when someone they aren't sure of does that.
Sorry this was so long ,and I hope even some of it helps.
Take Care and keep in touch. Mika,Kai,and Pam | | | | |
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Athena
Face kissing is- my favorite! |
| | Barked: Thu Nov 5, '09 8:37am PST | | | | | | He might do better without you there. Even if he might not being gaurding you....for some reason (just like kids) they like to throw tantrums infront of their owners/parents to get their way.
In our grooming salon a dog might be throwing a total hissy fit about getting a nail trim while the pet parent is standing there but as soon as you take the dog out of eye sight of the parent...it's totally fine.
You said he does fine othere places instead of the exam room?
Make the exam room a very positive thing for him. Bring his favorite treats or even some cold cuts (the dogs never really like those cheapy milkbones that the vets keep) and give it to him when he seems calm before the vet comes in. Then when the vet does come in have the vet give him some of those treats. You need to get him to veiw the vet trip in a new positive light.
OH! and NO coddling! So many people will try to "sooth" their pet by hugging, petting, etc while the pet is having an outburst....that's positive reinforcement for bad behavior. | | | | |
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Sabre
All the sticks- belong to me... |
| | Barked: Thu Nov 5, '09 1:31pm PST | | | | | | Well, when I decided to switch vets finally, I did drop in. Just last Saturday. It was great--they all surrounded him with attention and he did well. I left feeling happy about the place. I had no idea that the next day, he would have an eye issue and have to go back already. The PLAN was to do all of the visiting beforehand that we could possibly do. He injured his eye before having the chance to do that. So, I'm not sure if me carrying the feelings is the problem or not, can't say, because I definitely went to this new place with a positive attitude. Of course I wish we had had more time to do visitations with rewards and all.
Beau's parents are able to handle him pretty much any way they want. He's ok with them. He doesn't really have milkbones anyways, mostly real meat jerky type treats. I forgot to thaw out the real chicken though so will try that tomorrow. And I brought pb and a spoon but we didn't get the chance to take it out. Yes I know about the no coddling.
I also don't know about handing him to someone else. Any time I've handed the leash to a stranger he had given a warning bark--a trainer, emergency vet. I don't mind trying however as long as he's muzzled. I'm not opposed to work, open to any suggestions from you, just don't know about the behavior meds suggestion coming out after only one visit with this doctor.
We'll see how it goes tomorrow. He'll be sedated and possibly have surgery on his eye. I'll be there the whole time waiting for him to wake up so they won't have to cage him.
I'll keep you posted.
Melissa | | | | |
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Mika
as long as they- think they're- the boss
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| | Barked: Thu Nov 5, '09 4:33pm PST | | | | | | See Melissa, you do have the right instincts,you just got a little side tracked. There is no reason that you can't start over after the eye surgery(btw ,hope that goes without a hitch,we'll be thinking about you and him.). When you take him in even if he has to be muzzled,be firm,tell him he's fine and hand over the leash like you do it everyday and tell yourself the whole time this is going to be fine. Like Athena said though don't praise negative behavior.
Hoping all goes well for you. Please let us know and don't give up!
Sabre is a wonderful boy and this is just a small glitch.I don't think
I'd consider meds at this point though, it's only one visit.
Pam | | | | |
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Sabre
All the sticks- belong to me... |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 6, '09 3:40am PST | | | | | | I'll let you know how it goes. Unfortunately no treats today--no food or water after midnight. We borrowed Beau's muzzle--his owner rubbed it all over Scout too, so Sabre would like the smell. lol. I'm glad that somebody there listened to me though. I knew something looked wrong with his eye but the doctor was not getting what I was saying. Then when I called yesterday, the secretary knew exactly what I was talking about. They had to have a little conference as she put it, then called me back with the details. I like that they took the time to talk about the best way to proceed with Sabre. Much better place for Sabre than the old vet. Not sure what the old vet would have done. Probably getting his third eyelid snipped. I think that's what it is. | | | | |
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Tyson
Faster than a- flying paperwad! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 6, '09 8:01am PST | | | | | | Sorry to hear about more vet troubles for you guys, but glad you have a game plan. Tyson is a little like that. He has never been outgoing with strangers. He will allow a stranger to hold his leash, no problem. He will be polite if they want to pet him, but would much rather be left alone. He has been like this from puppyhood, despite lots of socialization, but its a temperament that I prefer. I want my dog to love and focus on ME, not be trying to meet every stranger they see. That's the kind of dog I want. But it does cause some trouble with being more extensively handled by strangers. These are strong, independent dogs. They may recognize you as a leader, but will not recognize the authority of a non-pack member. That's Tyson anyway, his issues stem from too much confidence, not fear. He has never growled or barked when being handled, but he does not like it. The harder the vet techs try to hold him the more he bucks and struggles. This is a dog that will let ME touch him anywhere and any way I want with no resistance. But he resents them imposing authority on him. I prefer to hold him myself for the vet. With a no-nonsense attitude, like 'suck it up buddy. You don't have to like it but you DO have to tolerate it.'
I don't remember if Sabre is usually social or if its just at the vet office, so I'll go ahead and post all steps just for future reference. Here is what was recommended to me by my handling trainer and what I have gathered from research/personal experience.
It is impossible for you to make this dog too social. So encourage every display of interest in strangers. Go to a park or walking path or sit in the vet office and reward him every time he notices another person. Use high value smelly treats or a tug toy if he's crazy about that. If he barks or won't take food you are too close to the distraction, move farther away and slowly work your way closer. Reward each time he looks at a person. Eventually he will start to understand the game and when he sees a person he'll immeadiately look to you for his treat. This is what you want! Now start to reward only when he looks at a person then looks back to you. You may have to move a little farther back for a while. The goal is: whenever he sees a stranger he gives you his attention with a happy attitude. This is a two-fold good thing. One: you are teaching him to voluntarily give you attention when you need it most, when distractions are around. and two: you are changing his perception of strangers. Instead of thinking, "oh here's a new person, do I need to be worried?" he'll be thinking "Yes, a person! They always mean treats!" (NOTE: this method also highly useful for dealing with a dog that gets reactive when he sees other dogs)
Next step: meeting strangers. Take every opportunity to meet and greet with dog-friendly strangers. If someone approuches you while you're out and about and says 'My, what a lovely dog!" you say "Thanks, would you like to give him a treat?" and hand them something to give to him. They can gently scratch his chest area while he eats it. They should NOT lean over him or pet the top of his head. If he's not ready to take food from strangers yet, then you can stand there and shower him in treats while you talk to the person. He is still being rewarded for being near the stranger. Later, once he's comfy with this you can progress to more petting. Strangers are now allowed to feed him and pet his head and back. It bugs Tyson when someone swoops around him, like to pet his haunches, so maybe that is something you can work up to over time. Anytime after he's ok taking food from strangers start having them give him a command that he must do before they feed him. Something he knows really well like sit or shake. This will reinforce in his mind that he must respect all people. He does not get a correction if he fails to perform for the stranger. Just practice more with the previous steps before you ask someone to give him a command again.
Next step will likely require the use of your friends and family, instead of strangers because it takes more time. The new person will now gradually start touching other areas. Ears, paws, muzzle, belly, privates, etc... This is assuming your dog already accepts all this from you with no problems. Brief the person on what you want first. You can treat, or the person, depends on how good your friend's timing is I guess, and how involved they want to be. Start as usual, by having them give Sabre a treat and a scratch. He should be totally comfy with this by this point. Now they touch an ear, just rub it real briefly, and he gets a treat. Rub ear again, treat. Again, treat. Repeat, repeat... Rub ear a little longer, treat. Then switch ears. Then both ears. Then acutally folding ear back and peeking in briefly. You see how this can progress? Allow him to be comfortable with each step before you push him harder. You do not want to force him so far out of his comfort zone that he feels he has to react. The goal is for each session to be fun and relaxing for him, not too stressful. Back off a few steps or take a break if he's getting upset. This would be a good game to play at the vet's office (eventually) with helpful techs or office staff, especially right before a real vet exam. Dog lovers are usually happy to help.
So you say, that sounds nice but finding all those strangers is going to be next to impossible. Well, I feel your pain, and admit to not working on this as much as I should for just that reason. Solution? Enroll in some dog classes. Instant dog-loving strangers! Let your instructor know what's going on and how you would like to work on it. Some instructors know a good bit about training tricks to dogs (sit, down, stay, etc..) but know little about working with behavioral problems, so don't hesitate to fully explain your plan, and tell them just what they need to do (touch him this way, back off at this point, etc..). You need to find a small class. 20 other students is just way too many distractions and there's no way your instructor will be able to pay much attention to you personally. 6 dogs or so would probably be an ok size (remember to play the first game if it is still too distracting, and do other attention building games if you need too). Petco is not the way to go here. Find a good quality instructor/class. I would recommend a class geared for doing the CGC test.
Tyson's a funny dog. Some people just really make him uncomfortable. There is this woman that is at classes sometimes with us and she is super friendly and likes to come pet him and he's ok with that, but last time she started making these bizzare noises, little hums and buzzes, and clucking sounds. I guess trying to get his attention back on her (he was looking at me) and it really pushed his buttons and creeped him out and he started woofing at her. He had moments before been letting her give him a belly rub. The strange noise lady is an example of someone you don't want around your dog when you're working through these social issues as it gives him a reason to feel nervous around strangers. One of my instructors is this super cool young gal. She was following me closely around in the ring while I was doing a course with Tyson, and he was a little uncomfortable with that, kept looking over his shoulder at her. After class she fed him a few treats, then petted him a bit(thus earning his trust), then had him do some sits and shake hands for treats(thus establishing herself as a non-aggressive but still authoritative person) and after just a couple minutes she was playing footsie with him(an exciting game where you quickly poke the dog's feet and he has to move them and try to paw you before you can get him) and face boxing of all things! (slapping or shoving the sides of the dog's face and he opens his mouth to counter you but maintains bite inhibition. It a game dog's play with each other except they both use their mouths. Its also something I often use as a training reward, so she had seen me do it and knew he wouldn't bite). I was so suprised she was able to do those pushy things with him, and so quickly. It was all in the context of a fun and exciting game with lots of food, so it left all these good memories and associations in Tyson's mind. This is exactly the kind of stranger Sabre needs to be meeting. Though leave off the face boxing for much later, ok?  Maybe they could play with a toy with him instead.
Here are some links if you need to get a better feel for good timing when working on the petting. The student's timing is pretty bad but pay attention to what the teacher is saying and doing with his body(Micheal Ellis is my favorite trainer!!!). This training is for formal competition exams but I'm sure you can pick up some pointers. You won't need quite this much focus, but the whole purpose of including the exams in competition is because a good companion (the first obedience title is CD, Companion Dog) should hold still and accept handling by a stranger like a vet or groomer. Sabre doesn't have to do it in a stand, especially to start out. It will probably be easier in a sit. But the point is not to push the dog so fast that it loses focus and starts worrying about the stranger.
Rewarding the Stand for Exam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTfov9QEJnc
AKC training the stand for judges approach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUWGpdMaXnI
AKC training the stand for judge's approach session 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgBdw9hxtGw
He makes a really really good point at about 1:00 about not correcting during this work
Common mistakes with marker training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47STGu0LkUg
Common mistakes with marker training part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owoqWyYLQP4
I realize you can't go through all these slow steps before his surgery of course, but when he recovers I would highly recommend working through all of this. You never know when your dog will need to be handled by strangers, it could save his life in an emergency. Plus it will makes both your lives easier and less stressful even with just yearly wellness checks, etc... One thing you can do to help in the mean time is get a very large treat that he finds absoultely irressitable. He wants it SOOO much he can not deny it, even when a stranger is near. This may be a whole garlicy chicken breast. For Tyson, it is a handful of raw burger. I'm hard core, lol, do whatever works for you and your dog. You are going to hold this in front of his face and let him take just little bites of it while the vet examines him. But really shove it up into his face, let him smell how good it is and lick it and nibble on it. This is similar to baiting conformation dogs in the show ring. Bring out the big guns. Smoked salmon, lamb liver, whatever. It has to be something so good that it blocks the rest of the world out and he will let the vet exam him because he couldn't possibly think about anything but this most amazing food. Let him eat on it the whole time the vet is touching him. I guess you won't be able to do this if he has to have an empty stomach for surgery, but you could try it if he has to go back for follow ups afterwards.
Got all that? Good grief, its a novel....
Good luck. Stay positive!
-Alanna  | | | | |
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Sabre
All the sticks- belong to me... |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 6, '09 8:45am PST | | | | | | We've definitely been working for a long time on socializing him with strangers. I take him many places and he WANTS to meet people. I can tell he's a little nervous, but he approaches, sniffs anyone who is willing and I just tell people not to touch the top of his head like you said. Because he's so handsome, I get a lot of people that want to meet him. He does take treats and will sit on command for some people. Friends and family that he has gotten to know are all able to handle him pretty much anywhere on his body.
It really is the vet where he has the most difficult time. Something about holding him down, there's no way out for him. I believe he'd much rather get away than bite anyone, thus the warning barks. He also doesn't like strangers grabbing his collar which is bad if he were to ever escape but I believe it's the same type of fear. I don't know if we'll ever get past this fear. Overall we've had so many other positive experiences. Now that we're done with his visit today, I'll keep taking him for drop in visits with lots of treats. I have to work on the watch me command more in many situations. I'm always working on meeting people! | | | | |
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Sabre
All the sticks- belong to me... |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 6, '09 8:47am PST | | | | | | oh, thanks for the advice. We're home now. No surgery, the eyelid was not torn, just an ulcer. While he was out they drew blood for heartworm and lymes disease as well as checked his joints, etc.
He's been so wobbly for the past hour but refused to give in. He wanted to look out his window but kept falling over. He finally fell down and is laying still, thank goodness. This new vet was good. They just took care of business without hesitation. | | | | |
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Tyson
Faster than a- flying paperwad! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 6, '09 10:46am PST | | | | | | Glad things went smooth and he didn't need surgery.
Important thing to remember with fear is just keep trying to pair things that are in his mind bad or scary with good things like food or play or whatever. You need to change how he sees these situations, change his mindset. Also remember that your attitude is so important! Be a cool, calm leader for him, it will help.
Hope all's well and he bounces back soon. | | | | |
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