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Natasha

>Go- ahead- run...		 
 
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '07 10:48am PST 
Alright it's way to quite in this group. We had a ton of people join and nobody is talking.

Over in the forums we are talking about the following study:

http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswit hshockcollar.pdf

Lets have the same discussion here. What do we think of this study?

I find it very interesting as I have a dog who is very much damaged by the daily use of an e-collar. She was trained using an e-collar from a very young age and is showing severe stress as a result of it.

Now I am not saying we should throw away the collars. I asking if we need to evaluate the use of them.

Thoughts??
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Hoelle- Jagdhund- Jaeger

thejaegerfund.co- m
 
 
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '07 3:24pm PST 
"All this promotes severe punishment in order to get quick results."

I think that says enough... It sounds like the people using these collars were doing it very harshly- too often on too high a shock.

I haven't noticed Jaeger doing any of the mentioned stress signals, and... he likes me more than any one else- and I'm the one who uses the reciever shrug

I guess I agree with the authors conclusion:
"Trainers and handlers should study learning theory far better and review the structure of the training in order to teach the let go command in an earlier phase and to reduce the number of mistakes. They should incorporate more rewards during exercises. Also, less
temperamental and less forceful dogs should be bred. This also would decrease the chance that dogs make mistakes for which they could receive punishment."

Good study applause
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Natasha

>Go- ahead- run...		 
 
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '07 5:59pm PST 
I agree....That is why in B&T I wanted to see if more studies were done. I want to see ones done on intermintent use to see if the same effects can be seen.

As I said I have a dog that has been ruined by the use of an e-collar but I have also had alot of success with them on behavioral issues.

Here's another study.....on citronella vs. shock bark collars

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/uploads/images/4454/Evaluati on_of_Plasma_cortisol_Levels__and_Behavior_in_Dogs_Wearing_Bark_Cont rol_Collars.pdf

Another very worthwhile read.....
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Hershey

Let's play!!!		 
 
Barked: Wed Nov 28, '07 10:21pm PST 
Sorry guys. I've been busy. My grandmother just passed away. Now there is trouble boiling over the will. I've also have been trying to find a home for my grandmother's 13 year old dog (new dogster profile under my family called Kiddo)- which has been really tough on me. Just not been up to it. If I have time this weekend I'll read through them but it might not be until the end of next week.
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Hoelle- Jagdhund- Jaeger

thejaegerfund.co- m
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 6, '08 10:35pm PST 
Another interesting read! applause I've always been wary about using the collar in stressful situations, as it seems that it would just further the problem. Dogs who bark excessively when in a shelter environment seem to be very stressed- so I'd think that the citronella might be a bit better of a choice in that situation, so was surprised that they seemed to work the same.

I do find it odd that I cannot find all of those studdies done that the electronic dog collar manufacturers boast about. It makes them seem rather sketchy, but perhaps those studdies are not published?

Hershey- So sorry to hear frown I hope things take a turn for the better for you guys!

Edited by author Sun Jan 6, '08 10:43pm PST

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Hershey

Let's play!!!		 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 20, '08 10:21pm PST 
Sorry this is late: but here is what I get out of the first one.

One thing that my biology professor stressed was the importance of looking at things we don't normally think about when reading surveys. Who read the dogs body language and what were their opinions of e-collars before the survey started. Its obvious their opinions influenced the survey as reference to clicker training as "friendly" and the use of e-collars as "apparently harsh".
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Hershey

Let's play!!!		 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 20, '08 10:31pm PST 
I do find this interesting:
"To counter misuse of the shock collar, it is proposed
to ban its use for “sports”, but save it for therapeutic applications, such as for suppressing
hunting and killing sheep."
I don't know how bad the sheep killing issue is in the Netherlands but this is when they find shock collars therapeutic in application and the use of the shock collar is given a pass.
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Hershey

Let's play!!!		 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 20, '08 10:47pm PST 
I'm not the type to believe that unless you can use only positive reinforcement you shouldn't have a dog.

It may not have been the best choice for a older petit lady to get a energetic large breed but if in order for her to have the control she needs so that she doesn't get dragged out scratched because she loves the dog so much she wants with all her heart to keep it then I think a e-collar can be a great tool if used properly.

Not to mention there are many people who just don't have the time. I walk two dogs for this one family. The mom is stay at home but with 2 twins that are toddlers and a 5 year old She can't walk the dogs and tend to her children. Her husband is gone til late at night do to work. They got the dogs before the kids. They don't have the time for a regular obedience class but would love to have there GSP behaved enough to take with them on vacation without him running off. Come to find they almost lost him on vacation one time and came close to coming home without him. At the age of 8 the dog is "set in his ways", the lack of time, and the breed himself in my opinion may make the e-collar method a grate tool rather than a lost dog. He is smart but was never taught to pay attention to the leader (human) or work with a human so he can get tunnel vision if not kept under a vigilant leadership.
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Tess

This is my- space...enter at- own risk.		 
 
Barked: Thu Feb 21, '08 9:20am PST 
Hershey I do agree that just because you don't use positive reinforcement doesn't mean you shouldn't have a dog.

For the dog you speak of to be honest it doesn't at all sound like a reasonable candidate for e-collar training. If the owners don't have time for a basic obedience class they are never going to have enough time to learn how to properly use the e-collar.

My greatest fear is unfortunately coming true. Too many pet owners are buying e-collars and strapping them on the dogs and seeing results fast. These results are coming at the expense of the dog because the people have no idea how to properly set the collar and use it.
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Hershey

Let's play!!!		 
 
Barked: Thu Feb 21, '08 10:26pm PST 
They would not use it improperly. The e-collar is another way to get the dogs attention back. While I do wish that everyone would take the time and actually teach a solid recall they just don't do so. The reliability is not there and if the dog does dart I would rather it not get lost or get hit by a car but have the e-collar there to get the dogs attention so that stay or come means stay or come. The dog knows come but has learned that if he is off leash, he doesn't have to listen. Every time the dog breaks the command the command losses its value. While it is one of those cases where the owners should not be allowing the off leash in the first place, it happens, but the e-collar can be there to get the dogs attention back, that even off leash he needs to listen. I would personally use the collar to give that added control in times of need, build the reliability/proof the command, and phase out of the use of it. How fast you phase out depends on how hard you work at it. The time to learn how to use the collar is relatively short. The part where time comes in is in teaching the wanted behavior. But just as there is a difference in methods in the the general dog training world the same consideration somewhat exists with the e-collar- some stim the dog after the command is issued and until the dog follows through or some use it more as a correction after a command is not followed through.

I know what you mean when people just strap on collars. Once I passed this couple where they had their lab on a collar I was walking by with my dogs and the guy starts hitting buttons and the dog is not responding. It was apparent that the dog does not know the command and the collar was not being utilized properly. Or there is a couple who walk their GSP of leash and the dog is doing whatever but then as I get close the guy starts hitting the collar and the dog is responding by avoiding me and slowing down do to the stim but not because she knows the command. As another time I passed them the wife asked what are you doing to her husband (his intentions were confusing even to her) and he said trying to teach her to heel and he was just pushing buttons to get the dog to "pull back".

Whether or not they are obtaining fast results is a different question. The people who see them walk by can tell they use the collar in a negative way because the dog does not in general walk nicely next to its owners. When using the collar everything should flow so that people should not notice the clumsy use of it.

Edited by author Thu Feb 21, '08 10:40pm PST

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