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Advocates for Positive Training » Group Forum

Aggression vs Dominance

  
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Abby NPC ~- CGC, TDI

Ban Breed- Specific- Legislation		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 14, '08 5:06pm PST 
Is there a difference? Many of you responded to my posting in forums when Abby snapped at a boxer for no reason. She displays behavior like this when she is around a dog that she doesn't know. This past weekend it was a rambuctious chocolate lab (about 1 - 1 1/2 years old). Everyone, except for me, said 'she is fine - just putting him in his place' or 'she's just showing her dominance'
She didn't bite him but there was plenty of growling and a couple of air snaps.
What do you think - dominance or aggression?
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Nicki

Nick the Knife,- Bug Assassin		 
 
Barked: Sun Oct 19, '08 9:09am PST 
I would just call it "communication" in regard to the rambunctious Lab. It sounds like a justified "back off." I don't know the story of the Boxer, but sometimes we humans don't catch the subtleties of dog language that came before the warning snap.

Is Abby doing this more frequently? What is your response when she does this?

--Nicki's mom
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Abby NPC ~- CGC, TDI

Ban Breed- Specific- Legislation		 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 20, '08 7:25am PST 
Thanks to the pups in this group I have been working with some desensitization methods.

I was just curious as to what the general consensus was on whether or not there was a difference between acts of dominance and act of aggression.

Like I said, I call it aggression, but others viewing her actions consistantly call it dominanceshrug
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Nicki

Nick the Knife,- Bug Assassin		 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 20, '08 8:15pm PST 
It's difficult to give an opinion on your specific situation without more information, but, in my general dog training experience, air snapping at another dog is, of itself, an aggressive act. Depending on the dog and the circumstance, it may or may not be born of dominance. For instance, the dogs who do this while on leash may be protecting what they view as their property (the one on the other end of the leash) or may be simply fearful, depending on their body language. The act is the same, but one has a dominance motivation and the other doesn't.

I didn't understand what you were after the first time. And possibly still don't wink

--Nicki's mom

Edited by author Mon Oct 20, '08 8:19pm PST

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Abby NPC ~- CGC, TDI

Ban Breed- Specific- Legislation		 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 21, '08 12:09pm PST 
You have no idea how many times I've wished that just ONE of you guys lived near me to help me to dissect the actions and help me to determine if they are dominance or aggression. I've always, well she just started this behavior this summer, looked at is as aggression but now so many are calling it dominance that I find myself second guessing my reactions.
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Lady, CGC

821708		 
 
Barked: Fri Oct 24, '08 6:38pm PST 
Hard to say without seeing it. Yes, air-snapping technically is an aggressive act, but it's communication. Pure and simple. "Stop that gosh darn idiocy or else" could've been the intent. We're not the dog. But aggression in itself? I don't know if I'd go there. The dog is doing no damage and not going back for more. There could be some issues with confidence (or lack thereof). The dog could very simply not know how to handle new situations and so "tells" all other dogs to "back-off". Should that be worked on, of course! Be present with your dog and recognize signs of stress (change of breathing, panting, alertness, tightness of muscles, tail wags). Get your dog around calm new dogs and walk away at signs of stress, then reintroduce when the dog calms down again.
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Sandy CGC

Whatever you- need done, I'll- do it!		 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 28, '08 1:46pm PST 
As a fellow dog owner with this problem there are a few bases to cover first.

1. check your dog's physical condition, including hips and hocks; pain from being slammed by a young dog is pretty good reason to snap
2. there is always a reason. dogs do everything for a reason.
3. where there any resources in the picture? food, toy, person...
4. was the dog cornered, either physically by structure or in the middle of a group of people
5. why didn't you get her out of the situation when she growled?

If she growled at the dog to back off and you didn't step in and get her out of there then she felt that she needed to air snap to get the dog to back off. This could be an age related thing, but it could not. My yellow lab growls and snaps at dogs when they get close because when she would get slammed by young dogs and it hurt. She has double slipped hocks in the back. She is great with calm dogs. You need to get her out of those situations, you're hanging her out to dry. Pair her with compatible energy levels. If she's a laid back dog, only let her loose with calm older dogs.

Without seeing the body language or the situation it is hard to say if this is an under socialized dog or one acting out because she felt she had no other choice. Thank your dog for only issuing an air snap. There are quite a few dogs out there that would have gone farther.

I will end on two things. I don't believe in dominance theory, it's crap. Dogs aggress because they have too, not because they want too. If you would like help finding a positive trainer in your area let me know. If you can get a video of your dog's behavior that would help for remote discussion.

Happy training!
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Donovan'sMajesticJet of Solace

Street sweeper!		 
 
Barked: Tue Dec 2, '08 7:20am PST 
Nikki, I agree with Abbey but wanted to add that some people dont believe in the "Dominance" theory, and is more likey as stated, a "communication. My pup doesnt know how to communicate(used to not know)"back off". He shows alerting signs then goes into launch mode barking snarling, dragging me. This is aggression, fear of other dogs.

Edited by author Tue Dec 2, '08 7:23am PST
Cracker

Dog About- Rosedale

moderator		 
 
Barked: Tue Dec 9, '08 6:16pm PST 
Aggression, to Aggress:
1/to commit the FIRST act of hostility or offense, attack first.
2/to begin to quarrel

Dominance, to dominate:
1/to rule; exercise control; predominate
2/to occupy a commanding or elevated position

So Technically it could be both. Clear as mud eh? lol.
I don't believe in a dominance hierarchy but dominance does exist. I believe it is more of a fluid series of rituals where one dog is dominant in one case and another in others. We have all seen submissive dogs, does it not follow that dominance exists? They all sit on a scale but that scale can shift towards one or the other ends simply by a change in environment or dogs in the environment.
Cracker is incredibly submissive to several dogs in our park and offers "dominant gestures" towards others.

To "tell off" an overly exuberant dog or "rude" dog is technically dominance in the sense that she is standing up to him and putting him in his place, though this does not make her a "dominant" dog. The move is also inherently aggressive, but, lacking words like us, this sort of communication is often the only way they can tell someone to back off. Also, this form of communication is often not intent to injure, simply a reprimand. I thnk this is why people often don't get too upset at the dog park when one tell off another. It is often just as effective for the dogs to work it out on their own than it would be to have the owners referree. There is a big difference between a "tell off" and a fight.

So, I don't know if I've made any sense here...but it's like with people sometimes, you can have someone who is generally easy going and polite but when someone comes up and is rude in their face they can choose to stand up to the other person. This makes for a "dominant behaviour" but not necessarily a dominant person. In that MOMENT they were dominant, and very possibly, aggressive. Personally I find that walk softly and carry a big stick works just fine...bol.

Edited by author Tue Dec 9, '08 6:19pm PST

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Cracker

Dog About- Rosedale

moderator		 
 
Barked: Tue Dec 9, '08 6:16pm PST 
Agression, to Aggress:
1/to commit the FIRST act of hostility or offense, attack first.
2/to begin to quarrel

Dominance, to dominate:
1/to rule; exercise control; predominate
2/to occupy a commanding or elevated position

So Technically it could be both. Clear as mud eh? lol.
I don't believe in a dominance hierarchy but dominance does exist. I believe it is more of a fluid series of rituals where one dog is dominant in one case and another in others. We have all seen submissive dogs, does it not follow that dominance exists? They all sit on a scale but that scale can shift towards one or the other ends simply by a change in environment or dogs in the environment.
Cracker is incredibly submissive to several dogs in our park and offers "dominant gestures" towards others.

To "tell off" an overly exuberant dog or "rude" dog is technically dominance in the sense that she is standing up to him and putting him in his place, though this does not make her a "dominant" dog. The move is also inherently aggressive, but, lacking words like us, this sort of communication is often the only way they can tell someone to back off. Also, this form of communication is often not intent to injure, simply a reprimand. I thnk this is why people often don't get too upset at the dog park when one tell off another. It is often just as effective for the dogs to work it out on their own than it would be to have the owners referree. There is a big difference between a "tell off" and a fight.

So, I don't know if I've made any sense here...but it's like with people sometimes, you can have someone who is generally easy going and polite but when someone comes up and is rude in their face they can choose to stand up to the other person. This makes for a "dominant behaviour" but not necessarily a dominant person. In that MOMENT they were dominant, and very possibly, aggressive. Personally I find that walk softly and carry a big stick works just fine...bol.
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