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Advocates for Positive Training » Group Forum

I think I found it!

  
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Nick, CGC, WETX

I like wet, fowl- smelling things		 
 
Barked: Fri Feb 22, '08 4:42am PST 
Snake avoidance training without an e-collar!

Long story short one person led to another etc. and I found Steve White:

http://www.i2ik9.com/

An R plus P minus trainer. He is one of the instructors who give seminars at Clicker Expo and otherwise checks out really solidly.

Here's an excerpt from one of his emails to me:

"And yes, the use of an e-collar to teach snake avoidance will have a globally dampening effect on other behaviors. Avoid it if you can. That said, proponents argue that a a little global dampening is preferable to a dead dog, but methinks they know not what's possible by other means."

We agreed on a "Back Up & Bark" behavior as being the most practical in the field and he is going to work with me (sadly not in person) to get through it.

I can get caged live snakes from a nearby snake farm...kind of rent a rattler, HA! Anyway, I have to work out the details with the farm but they agreed in principle to help (maybe it'll be a side business for them, who knows)

I have taught Nick something sort of similar which is a go around for fire ant mounds based on smell, but can't compare snakes to ants and he can get really close to the ants without a tragedy.

Anyway, I am excited and will keep you all posted.

I wish I could get to Clicker Expo in Lexington, KY at the end of March to meet Steve.

ETA: Sorry, I just realized I should have added this post to my other thread, sheesh.

Edited by author Fri Feb 22, '08 4:44am PST
ARCHMX Asher- RL1X RL2X- RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words		 
 
Barked: Fri Feb 22, '08 8:24am PST 
Nick, that is fantastic. When you get them, details please.

It is so not an issue here that I never even thought about it, but now we will have an expert to send people to when they have questions.

dancing
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Mocha Bear- (Mokie),- VGG, KPA,

CEO of Rewarding- Behaviors Dog- Training
 
 
Barked: Fri Feb 22, '08 10:31am PST 
Nick,

I know you were really not liking the idea of a shock collar (obviously), and am so glad that a safe and positive alternative has presented itself.

I'd LOVE to hear about your experiences working with this trainer, and I too would love to make it to Clicker Expo.

Maybe someday.

wink
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Mocha Bear- (Mokie),- VGG, KPA,

CEO of Rewarding- Behaviors Dog- Training
 
 
Barked: Thu May 22, '08 7:59pm PST 
Nick,

I know it's been a while, but do you have any updates for this?

I'd like to use scents for bears and possibly porcupines to teach my dogs similar behaviors when we're in the woods. I would probably want them to come back to me, sit and alert...

Tips?
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Nick, CGC, WETX

I like wet, fowl- smelling things		 
 
Barked: Fri May 23, '08 8:28am PST 
Yup, I can update you on the snake avoidance stuff.

Also good idea to scent train M & M for bears and porcupines, I can give you some suggestions for that including where to get the scents and what to get for what purpose.

The return, sit and alert is a protocol we use in air scent training for dogs that will be doing S&R so I can give you some training suggestions on that too.

I have a work project I am stuck with for the weekend but will pmail you with some stuff in a day or two.
Mocha Bear- (Mokie),- VGG, KPA,

CEO of Rewarding- Behaviors Dog- Training
 
 
Barked: Fri May 23, '08 11:17am PST 
Thanks, Nick.

I'd very much appreciate it!

I am totally going to ClickerExpo in RI next year, and I would love to catch Steve White's presentation if I get the chance.
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Nick, CGC, WETX

I like wet, fowl- smelling things		 
 
Barked: Sat May 24, '08 4:17am PST 
Yes, very cool guy.

Also you will probably run into Jim Barry the co-author of Positive Gun Dogs. He owns/runs a training company called Rhode Island Gun Dogs (I think that's the name) a super guy!

check your pmail for scent training.
Jasmine

Such a Happy- Girl

moderator		 
 
Barked: Sat May 24, '08 5:10am PST 
WAIT!! There was a Clicker Expo an HOUR away from me and I didn't even know?? shock Dang it!!

Sounds like a neat way to train snake avoidance, though. way to go
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The- LabraMutts

Justy, Homer- (angel) &- Bobbi-Girl		 
 
Barked: Sun May 25, '08 3:27pm PST 
Wow, Nick!!! This is great! I was looking last year for snake, gator, & cane toad avoidance methods. All I kept hearing was SHOCK - nope, not happening!

Gee, I don't even have to rent a snake. We have enough non-venomous snakes slithering about that if I take the dogs out at the right time of evening or morning, we can work on it.

I think we got past the cane toad problem altogether thanks to enough Cuban tree frogs & Southern toads & being told "LEAVE IT" so many times. They don't even give a 2nd glance at anything in the toad & frog dept. any more AND go wide around them when they are on the steps or patio.

Snakes & gators are a bit tougher - don't occur often enough & don't want to put the pups at risk. I think we could do the "leave it" with snakes if we're out at the right time. Gators, well...

Please share what you learn wave
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Nick, CGC, WETX

I like wet, fowl- smelling things		 
 
Barked: Mon May 26, '08 5:26am PST 
L-Mutts, here's what I can tell you. Snakes like all other animals, reptiles etc. all smell differently to a dog, and they also sound and sometimes look differently. So, I would be careful about teaching "leave it" for any snake and assuming it would work for all snakes.

For instance, rattlesnake avoidance will work with rattlers but not necessarily water moccasins (another venimous snake we have around here) and I would not take the chance but rather train for each specifically.

Also "leave it" only works if you see the snake first or simultaneously with your dog and you are both at a distance. That is impractical when hunting or even just hiking since Nick is out there working and exploring and he is going to be aware of the snake long before I will in many cases. He may encounter one and I don't.

The best non e-collar method I found was recommended by Steve White from Seattle a super trainer and often a lecturer at Karen Pryor's Clicker Expo. Although I don't use a clicker his suggestions were what really worked.

Basically you teach your dog to back up and bark when it smells, sees, or hears a rattlesnake any of the three sense alerts elicits the back up and bark response.

I had already taught Nick to "back up" it is a cue I use when we play catch but I had not taught him to bark on cue and he only barks when his territory is "invaded" like when someone comes up the driveway. He never barks in the field or at me. So that was a little more difficult to figure out. But in the end neither are all that difficult to teach or to connect with the a rattlesnake if you have a live one in a cage.

I hope I never have to see him put the training in action in the field. I practice my own avoidance by trying to keep us out of the areas and times of day/year that they are most likely to be around. Also I suppose that for the training to really be effective I will have do some refresher work with him periodically.

Hope that all helps.
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