Dog Breed Test

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Risa- W-FDX/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 12:54pm PST


	I know this info was inundating Dogster back in March when it was first introduced. I've seen the info pop up again on occasion. And it gets me thinking. As much as I doubt it's ability to determine a dog's actual mix perfectly, I can't help but consider having it done on Risa. Even though it doesn't really matter what type of mix she is, it is sort of annoying not knowing. Especially when people ask you and you can't give them a good answer. Health issues are important too. I know German shepherds are prone to SIBO (because of autoimmune issues) which Risa was diagnosed with in April (we'll be going off meds this week and will soon find out if it's a chronic condition). Unfortunately, some of the breeds I think she could be mixed with (Aussie shep and Aust. Cattle Dog) aren't on the list. So it might not tell me anything at all. Sigh I dunno, what do you guys think? Would it be worth the $70 to find out a few possible breeds in her combination or just leave it up to guesswork to 'know' what Risa is a mix of??

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Gio

CD RE (CKC)- RXMCL (CARO) FM- CGN SJATD

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 1:47pm PST


	You are talking about that genetic test to determine dog breed, right?? I actually don't have a good feeling about this test and have run it by one of the people I work with in the lab, he's not my supervisor but has taught me almost everything I know as far as genetic lab work goes. The description I read back when someone posted this in the main forum a few months ago, said that the test was SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) based. If I were to think about designing a test to determine breed, I think I would be looking more towards microsatellites as there are many breed specific alleles in microsatellites. When it comes to SNPs, there are really only 4 options - A, T, G, C. So the variety and differences among breeds is going to be lower. Whereas with microsatellites, there are often upwards of 30 different alleles at each marker, and in my mind at least, a greater chance of having a breed specific allele. I guess they probably designed the test the way they did to capitalize on the relatively new advances in SNP Chip technology that provides a very easy and convenient way to design and test many many markers at once (Alex - how many were on the chips you saw down in San Diego?). I think what must be happening in that test is that they are looking for certain combinations of SNPs to point towards a particular breed. So for example, to indicate that there is German Shepherd in your dog, it would have to be genotyped as A at marker 1, T at marker 13, T at marker 27, G at marker 83, ... etc. etc. It won't just be the case of being genotyped positive at the German Shepherd Gene. The problem with this sort of test is that you would run into overlap. For instance, looking at a Golden Retriever and a Flat Coated Retriever, very similar dogs coming from very similar lineages, they would have many genetic similarities. So if a particular mixed breed is tested and at certain markers appears to be of the retriever line, there is still some ambiguity as to whether it would be Golden Retriever or Flat Coated Retriever. I'm sorry, I'm really bad at explaining this. It all makes sense in my head though, I promise! BOL Anyways, I guess my point would be that I wouldn't put too much faith in the accuracy of these tests. It would really be a situation where a dog would be genotyped at a multitude of SNPs to produce a code, then that code has to be deciphered in order to take a "best guess" at what it might mean.

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Risa- W-FDX/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:14pm PST


	Don't worry. I certainly wouldn't expect it to be a loud and clear "Risa is this mix of dogs!" And your posting did make sense, even if I'm not 100% familiar with all of the terminology. I definately understood what you said. I looked at some of the photos of dogs they'd deciphered and, with some of them, I couldn't understand how they could even have that breed in them. One in particular was determined to be a German shepherd/Shar-pei/Chow/Bernese Mtn. Dog cross. The first three I could see but Berner?? No way. I also don't understand how they can determine what breed it is when so many breeds are a mix of other breeds. Like the Australian shepherd (which may be why it's not listed). And I also must agree with your mentioning of breeds that are so close like the retreivers. I noticed they only test for the Belgian Terv. That makes since because all the Belgian breeds are one in the same except for coat. So how do you know exactly which one was the parent? You don't! I just wish there were a definitive way to figure out what Ris is. I see so many mixes that resemble her that it's just impossible to narrow it down by appearance alone.

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Sabrina- 2000~2012

To break- injustice we- must break- silence

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:20pm PST


	I have to agree about SNPs vs microsats. Actually I think the best method would be a combination of the two to really get at what the alleles are. I actually use microsats (microsatellites) in my research and we can narrow down which population a particular plant is likely to be from, but it doesn't say it's from there for sure. So I think the dog breed things would narrow down some possibilities but I don't think they can say definitively what your breed is. Plus with a mix of more than 2 breeds or where the mixing was more than first generation (as in your dogs parents were both purebred) you're going to have all kinds of problems with crossing over during meiosis complicating everything. If both parents were purebred I can see how you might elegantly be able to assign one allele at each locus to the two different breeds, but if your dog is more mixed than that it will probably be very messy and not super helpful. That said, have I ever considered the test? Yup! I would like confirmation of what Sabrina is, even though pretty much everyone who sees her says Weim/pit. So, if the money is worth it to you and you understand that the results may or may not tell you anything, then go ahead! And be sure to post your results here!

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Risa- W-FDX/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:27pm PST


	If it were more accurate, I might be willing to fork over the $70. But I can think of better things to spend that money on at the moment. Especially if it isn't going to tell me much more than looking at Ris does. You brought up another point I considered too, Sabrina. It's easier to determine with an F1 mix. Not so simple if it's an F2 mix or later. And I highly, HIGHLY doubt Risa is a 50/50 mix.

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Gio

CD RE (CKC)- RXMCL (CARO) FM- CGN SJATD

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:43pm PST


	Slightly off topic, but not really ... it just boggles my mind how anyone could randomly end up with a German shepherd/Shar-pei/Chow/Bernese Mtn. Dog mix! German Shepherd, maybe ... but I have only ever seen 4 Berners in the flesh, 1 Shar-pei, and I've only seen Chows in pictures/television. How are these insanely rare breeds all converging and making puppies? Maybe it's just the area I live in, but those breeds honestly aren't in this area, and if they are, then they are purebred show dogs that are not let loose to wander and make mutt puppies! BOL

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Alex

I see you Mr.- Squirrel, and I- can wait

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:44pm PST


	Gotta agree with everyone so far...Microsats are definetly the way to go...although I think the SNP chip are now available with at least 10s of thousands of SNPs (I could be way off, but that's the number that popped into my head...). In the one paper I read a while ago, they were able to sucessfully allocate dogs to their breed of origin using Microsats but not SNPs - and those were registered pbs... I really don't think this test would be much help - with F1 crosses you can usually make a pretty good guess just by eye - and for the mix-mix crosses -where the info from a genetic test would be useful - I really don't think you'd get much good info out of the test...

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Gio

CD RE (CKC)- RXMCL (CARO) FM- CGN SJATD

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:54pm PST


	I guess one of the main reasons that they are using SNPs is because it is just so much easier. Microsats are a pain in the tush and take much longer to do than running a SNP chip.

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Risa- W-FDX/MF RA- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog

Barked: Mon May 21, '07 2:57pm PST


	Gio, I think Berners are becoming more popular. I know the pet store that sold puppies back home in Syracuse (ugh! but that's a whole 'nother topic) sold Berners. There were at least 2 that came to the vet hospital where I worked. We had a couple Shar-peis there as well. Someone in my apt building has a Shar-pei pup and I saw an adult at the Pet Walk over the weekend. I remember 3 Chow dogs we had at the vet hospital and I've seen plenty of Chow mixes. Shepherd/Chow mixes seem to be pretty common (my aunt had one). Overall, I think this commercial dog breed test is more a moneymaking scheme than anything else. I can definately see it's appeal! But as far as how accurate it is, it's probably not.