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Confused about Some APDT Rally Rules

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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 19, '13 11:32am PST 
Elitism seems to be alive and well in the dog world...

Looks to me from your quote Rally was created as an alternative activity, independent of Obedience.

Regardless of whether or not people view Rally as a "real" sport, I don't know anyone else in person (besides the people at trials) who do Rally. The "sorta sport" that I do with my dog is far and above what everyone else I know does, and I am pretty deeply involved in the dog world.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat Jan 19, '13 11:58am PST 
Part of this is the split between the dog fancy and pet ownership.

Nothing wrong with a little elitism....as long as you prove it laugh out loud The proper breeding of purebred dogs is elitism proven. A breeder who has a website and will kak about how GREAT their dogs are with no titles, no nothing? Ah ha. Those who get high titles have proven something in a quality sense, which is what the art of breeding is all about. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. Any dog can get a CD. A CD behind a dog's name means someone sought to do something with that dog. 'Tis all. I like to see it from breeders because it shows they involve themselves past the "my dog has a pretty face" mode. But not until UD levels do my ears prick. Not until then is a dog doing something "quality" in a dog fancy sense, i.e., something not all dogs can do. And that's valuable genetic info. Not just that he did, but that he did BETTER than a lot of dogs can. He did something only a select number can do. And that is very useful in assessing pedigrees, continuing lines, etc.

That doesn't need to be in the context of owners enjoying their pets. The AKC indeed started this movement. I remember when there were far fewer titles. No agility. Certainly no CGC. Getting people involved with their pets not only increases owner enthusiasm, but makes for happier owners apt to stay in dogs for many years to come, and also....important.....goes a lot closer to encouraging good doggie ambassadors out there in the street. Great stuff.

But still different schools. There is a difference between a dog proving than he "can" and a dog proving that he is BETTER than the average dog. The latter may have no hook at all for a pet owner....although some get the bug BIG time....but it has everything to do with taking the "best of his generation" mantra in the art of breeding dogs and put it on performance also, which is extremely important to those trying to better generations. In terms of pet owners, you don't need the best. You may not even get the point of that. Why do you need to be better than anyone else? You are just enjoying your dog. And that's fine, it's good. It's just different.

I confess, with no hesitation, that I am elitist about titles. But that's my dog fancy side. I don't care about rally, I don't care about CDs in looking at a pedigree other than the indication the breeder can move past the breed ring.

Whereas if you are talking about a pet owner getting "lighter" titles with their dogs....when adopters do that I am THRILLED! Those don't seem "lighter" to me then, but a great sign of an enthusiastic owner and some nice achievement between them and their dogs. What could be better?! There it has value. Whereas if I am looking at a pedigree....totally different world....it doesn't prick my ears terribly much.

Different worlds. Same with trainers for me. I don't go with trainers who don't have multiple high titles/venues, for there I can see they were better than their peers. And if I am going with a trainer, that matters to me. High titles, multiple venues. That is my qualifier, and then I start looking at the other stuff everyone else does. How did they get those?, have they coached those as well? and so on.

Edited by author Wed Jan 23, '13 5:05pm PST

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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 6:06am PST 
I guess it is always easy to form opinions from the outside. And easy to see the elitism, even from those who have never stepped foot in the ring.

That is one of the things I really love about APDT Rally. it is NOT about elitism. If someone were to come and brag about titles or championships in a venue like cyber rally, most of the people I know who do APDt would graciously congratulate them, sincerely happy for them, rather than treating their choice of venue with derision.
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Risa- W-FDM/MF RE- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 6:48am PST 
I think there is elitism in every dog sport. The OB people look down on rally. The people who do AKC rally look down on APDT rally. This freestyle organization looks daggers at the other ones who don't view dog dancing the same way. . . That's not to say all individuals are like that since I know several in various venues who don't feel that way.

Again, it comes down to what you're looking for in a dog sport. Are you looking for a way to prove your dog or your breeding stock or are you just looking to have a good time? As much as I am in it for the fun of it, I'm also incredibly competitive. Not only do I want to have a good time, but I want to qualify and I want to place well. On top of all that, I want to LOOK GOOD DOING IT. There is nothing worse, to me, than placing well and performing terribly. And, believe me, it's happened plenty of times and usually in the same sport/venue.

I am out there to prove my dog as well. Not to other people or for breeding purposes, but to myself. She's come a long way and the titles and placements help show how far we've come. smile
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Zephyr

1213425
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 1:18pm PST 
I don't actually care what other people do with their dogs. I think a lot of things people do is ridiculous but if they want to put thousands of titles after their dogs name, go to town. I would prefer if they kept to conventions in title use but even if they don't whatever, not the end of the world. Personally I value some of my titles more than others but it's a personal benchmark more than others.

Personally I have my dogs in AKC, UKC and less frequently ASCA and everyone has something nasty to say about somebody else. It's just how it is when you get a lot of 'Type A's together. You can choose to participate or not. I choose not and go about my day. In that respect you also have to put on your big-puppy pants and not get yourself in a twist when you hear bad things about yourself. It's surprising to me how few people get that. It's easier to just keep your mouth shut and do your own thing.

For what it's worth I wouldn't compete in Cyber-rally because I don't need to and I'm already stretched thin.
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 2:18pm PST 
I can agree with you Tiller, if you are looking to spend a huge amount of money on a dog through a breeder, I would want a dog that competed and placed well in a rigorous sport. But for me, my dogs are all rescues. I got Sarah when she was a year old and before I really knew what I was doing. smile Now she's four, I'm still not really sure what I'm doing with her smile, and I'm playing at Rally. It's not AKC, and it's not even APDT/USDAA. I probably compete in the most lax venue out there, but it's fun!

I am like you too, Risa, I'm in it for fun, but I do want to do well! smile
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Risa- W-FDM/MF RE- RL1 CA CGC

Awesome Dog
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 2:57pm PST 
Not the food issue again.

Honestly, I have competed in both AKC and APDT rally. In AKC I cannot use food and in APDT I can (though I usually don't). Risa's attention and focus is NO BETTER in APDT than in AKC. She wanders off on me in both venues. Doesn't seem to matter at all if I have food or not. The issue is in the training; not whether or not I have a reward available.
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Sun Jan 20, '13 3:31pm PST 
Yes, I am an APDT Rally judge, so I am certainly aware of the changes. They have already made the new logo available for judges and the transition should be complete before I judge in February.

As to elitism, I have not seen much of it in APDT. It is one of the things that drew me to that venue (and C-WAGS). I have heard UKC is extremely exhibitor friendly too. I know the two students I had today who compete in AKC(in conformation, agility and Rally) as well as many of my other students who compete in AKC (including the JRT and Pug each going to Nationals this year) have told horror stories. Having never trialed in AKC (nor ever intending to), I can not verify those stories.

As for the food vs toy issue.. well, i wouldn't expect either to be used in competitive venues but..

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. Since you never intend to trial, I am not quite sure why you would care shrug

I personally disagree. i think that the only reason to trial (outside of proving breeding stock which is something I am not at all interested in doing) is to have fun. If feeding in the ring heightens the dog's enjoyment of trialing without disrupting the flow of the course, well, that is a wonderful thing.

Of course, no matter how what one does, there will always be detractors trying diminish accomplishments. one of the reasons I really loved APDt is because I did not see that often, either as an exhibitor or a judge.

Rollo, if you sincerely want an answer to your question, I'd suggest you post it on the cyber rally CRO group on Yahoo. Jude Azaren, the co-founder and current administrator, is in the group and answers all questions promptly. Also there are several people who've got enough experience to help out. We could discuss and guess their rationale, but who better to answer the question than the founder herself.
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Rolo

1236640
 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 21, '13 5:27am PST 
Since you already seem so familiar with the yahoo group(s), could you post my question there?
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ARCHMX Asher RL1X RL2X RL3X RL

we will dance in- the ring without- words
 
 
Barked: Mon Jan 21, '13 5:56am PST 
It's not my question. And I have no issues with the rules as they are written. I just noted that if you really wanted an answer, the people to ask would be the people who created the venue rather than random people who don't compete in the venue (and in many cases don't compete in any sports in any venue).

If you don't want to join their yahoo group, they also have a facebook page where you can ask:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/244875868922104/?ref=ts&fref =ts
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