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Running, catching, leaping; this is the forum to discuss dog sports and agility training with other active pups!
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Sheeba
Daddy's little- girl |
 | | Barked: Sat Nov 7, '09 10:33am PST | |  | |  | | Hi all, soon we will have a new addition to the family (sort of) by the end of the month. My boyfriend's parents are in the process of getting divorced and his mom is taking the dog. Unfortunately her one-bedroom apartment is a major downgrade from the house they just sold, and poor Bruce isn't getting as much attention either. Instead of her giving him away to a coworker, we told her we would take him so he can stay in the family, and she can take him back if her situation changes.
He's a super mellow 4-5 yo black Lab, and I was thinking about trying Rally with him (I plan on doing agility and/or flyball with the Sheebster). But then I saw there is also AKC Obedience.. what is the difference? He knows all of his basic commands, is great off-leash, and the all-around perfect dog, so it would be nice to do something that didn't require he take any obedience classes-- he don't need 'em! 
Can anyone register in Rally/Obedience trials, even without "formal training"? Does the dog need to be AKC registered? |  |  | |  |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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 | | Barked: Sat Nov 7, '09 12:03pm PST | | | | | | Sheeba, it depends on the venue you choose for Rally.
In AKC, non AKC registered dogs can either PAL to compete with the purebreds or register as a mixed breed and compete (only) with the mixed breeds. In APDT, any breed can compete and all compete on an even playing field.
You do have to register your dog in either venue, just a matter of filling out a short form and getting a number to compete.
While you do not have to take classes to compete in Rally, you probably should. You need to know what each sign means and how to navigate the course. Sometimes, if you have a good intructor, you can also get useful strategic tips.
So what is Rally Obedience?
In a word, Rally Obedience, or Rally as it is commonly know, is FUN!
Rally incoperates elements of competitive obedience, agility and freestyle.
Like agility, each Rally trial consists of a unique course created by the judge. The dog and handler heel from station to station, stopping at each sign to complete the assigned exercise. Many of the exercises, like sits, downs, stays and recalls, will be familiar to the competitive obedience buff. But a course can also include freestyle moves such as sidesteps and moving backups.
What sets Rally apart is the ability to interact with the dog and give feedback throughout the course. Repeating cues will still cost points, but there is no limit to how the cues are issued. While heeling from sign to sign or performing an exercise, the handler can ecourage, praise or even sing to the dog if they are so moved. Some venues allow physical contact and food rewards after specific exercises.
Rally may lack the formality of competitive obedience, the heart punding excitment of agility the beauty of freestyle, but it is the perfect forum to build and celebrate the fullfilling relationship between a dog and owner. | | | | |
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MACH2 Aslan
MACH2, RAE, XF,- EAC, EJC, R2-CL,- etc. |
| | Barked: Sat Nov 7, '09 4:55pm PST | | | | | | The difference between AKC Rally and formal obedience is simple...detail. Rally is very loose in the way it is judged. It also does allow the handler to talk to the dog throughout the course. Because the heel/sit work is not as tightly judged in Rally as formal Obedience, many people prefer the more easy Rally to the harder to train formal Obedience.
I have done both, and have to say I find the more formal Obedience to be a much more fun sport because of the detail. It's much more difficult to train, and I really like challenges. I also find the dumbbell work in Open and the scent discrimination, jump discrimination and glove work in Utility to be a blast (as does my dog). I find the Novice level in formal Obedience to be dull. I do not, however, have my competition agility dogs trained for formal Obedience (see below). I have a dog that prefers obedience to agility, and he is now working on his Utility level. He's not far from showing in Utility.
Rally is easy and many people enjoy it. I prefer agility and formal Obedience myself, but will show my agility dogs in Rally (and have shown two dogs to the RAE - AKC's highest Rally titles). My obedience dog way prefers formal Obedience to Rally....WAY prefers it.
BTW, I do not at all see any elements of agility in Rally. Anyone who does agility at a highly competitive level will agree. Agility and Rally are two different sports completely. However, Rally is a good obedience companion sport for agility dogs. Formal obedience is not a good combo with agility as it requires such detail that the dog becomes too close a worker and too detail oriented for a super fast agility run. They can go together, but not as well as agility/rally. (This is just an aside...I know the OP isn't asking about agility).
For the OP, it really depends on how much time you want to train and how detail oriented you and your new dog is. If you don't want to train much, go with Rally. If you want to put the time in to get the details down, go with formal Obedience. Many teams start with Rally and once they have trained to the highest level realize there's a whole other level of training to achieve in formal Obedience. They then switch to that venue. But do realize the first level of formal Obedience is deadly dull (IMO). Hang in there till you get to the fun stuff in Open and Utility. | | | | |
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Maggie RE- CGC
I's a beaver! |
| | Barked: Sat Nov 7, '09 8:34pm PST | | | | | | I personally prefer Rally because Obedience just is dull. I have trained a few of the Open/Utility exercises because Maggie likes them, but she just has no desire to do heel patterns (we have always NQ because of them).
Maggie likes Rally-O because it consists of different moves and is always in a different order with different signs. Maggie is well on her way to her RAE and I am sure Porter will fly right through to the same level, he may even have high level Obedience potential even though I planned on him being my agility dog.
I don't do dog sports for titles or bragging right, those are just perks for me...I figure that if my dog is not having fun I most definitely will not be having fun. I only compete because my dogs love the spotlight and crowds, plus it gets me out and about and I get to socialize with other dog people in person.
Since you live on the East Coast I would look in APDT Rally like Asher said. It sounds like a lot more fun than AKC with different signs and challenges. You can trial without formal training, but I would suggest looking into "drop-in" practices as you can learn a lot from actually watching others in person, plus most Rally people I have met are more than willing to assist and answer questions! | | | | |
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ARCHX Asher,- RL1X, RL2X,- RL3
Learning is- changing what we- do
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| | Barked: Sun Nov 8, '09 8:19am PST | | | | | | ,i>BTW, I do not at all see any elements of agility in Rally. Anyone who does agility at a highly competitive level will agree
Maybe you didn't read my whole response. The element from agility would be that each trial is a unique course, created by the individual judge. Unlike Obedience, where you are doing the same exercises for each level, a Rally course is different each time you do it
I think it depends on what you are looking for. Competive Obedience is more about precision, Rally more about relationship. If you are looking to prove your dog, Obedience is probably the route to go. If you are looking for fun, I'd suggest Rally.
Personally, I agree with Maggie. I find Comp Ob to be a bit boring. I like interacting with my dogs while I trail, having the ability to praise and even feed them in the ring and just generally let them know how wonderful they are in general. Some of the nicest compliments I have had have followed NQ's (mistakes I made, not my dogs) with judges commenting on how well my dogs worked and how evident it is that we have a wonderful relationship. Who could ask for more than that? | | | | |
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Bosley
Where are the- treats? |
| | Barked: Sun Nov 8, '09 9:01am PST | | | | | | Asher said:
Competive Obedience is more about precision, Rally more about relationship. If you are looking to prove your dog, Obedience is probably the route to go. If you are looking for fun, I'd suggest Rally.
Ok, normally I don't get involved in this kind of bickering on these forums, but as someone who trains and competes in both Rally and formal Obedience (as well as other things) I really need to comment on this statement.
Rally is more about relationship ???? Any competitive dog sport is about relationship. Saying that relationship is more important or is stronger when you compete in Rally than in traditional obedience is very misleading and hurtful to those of us who pour hours of obedience training and relationship building with our dogs. Not sure if you meant it this way Asher (I am hoping you didn't). Anyone who has trained in traditional obedience knows that you must have a very strong relationship with your dog. Your dog must trust you and work well enough to do all those exercises without any extra commands or cheerleading. If you have a strong relationship with your dog, he will know that he is doing the right thing out there and his reward is coming, even if you are not chattering at him the whole time or don't have a cookie in your pocket.
If you are looking to prove your dog, Obedience is probably the route to go. Prove what???Not sure what you meant by this Asher, but it sounds like a slam at people who do competitive obedience. Anytime you get a leg or title in any event, Rally , Obedience, Agility, etc., you are proving your dog. You are proving that you have put in the time, training and relationship building to get that ribbon.
If you are looking for fun, I'd suggest Rally. I guess fun is how you train it. I find Rally fun. I also find formal obedience fun. It is all in how you train. I train using lots of games and am very physical (hands on playing) with my dogs when we train. I love the precision of formal obedience and find the challenge of getting those straight fronts and perfect heeling very fun. I love working through something tough and seeing the wonderful result in the end. I am currently getting ready to compete in Open obedience with Bosley. When we started, he would not look at the dumbbell, never mind pick it up. After nearly a year of hard work, he now loves the dumbbell and my heart jumps a bit everytime I see him fly out, tail wagging to bring his dumbbell back. His dumbbell work was all trained using the clicker and lots of fun games. I have nothing but fun training those formal exercises. | | | | |
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Gracie
Service with a- Smile! : ) |
| | Barked: Sun Nov 8, '09 11:22am PST | | | | | | We do both obedience and Rally. I don't show often, but would if I had more money.
Rally is fun, but is WAY easier than obedience. Maybe the hardest part is making sure YOU do the stations right. There is more room for handler error. I like doing rally because of the different moves you teach your dog. if you are just starting out, or have a young dog i recommend doing Rally. You can do all you need to within reason to keep your dogs focus. It is a good idea to take a class to learn the signs, but you can download instructions on how to do the signs from the AKC website. If you start out with rally first, you can also compete in the A class unless you have gotten certain obedience titles.
My 14 month old puppy just got two legs in Rally Novice B. One was a perfect score. Go to Tuvoks dogster page
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/918392
to see him compete in Rally. Gracie has been trained in formal obedience and just flew through the different rally titles even though she compete in the B class- it would have been more challenging to do the rally first, plus you will get to compete in the A class which I think is good for someone just starting out.
However- I like doing obedience too. There is much more training required to compete in obedience, but you teach your dog some very useful things like the different retrieves- directed, over a jump, on the flat and scent discrimination as well as signal exercises. Your relationship with your dog needs to be VERY strong to compete in obedience. Your dog will also need to develop a lot of focus without reminders. I recommend taking a Novice readyness class before you try to compete in obedience. your heeling needs to be perfect.Edited by author Sun Nov 8, '09 11:23am PST
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Lilliana
OA, OAJ, OF,- AAD, NAC, NJC,- CGC
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| | Barked: Sun Nov 8, '09 3:12pm PST | | | | | | I agree that each of the companion sports are about your relationship with the dog. Lily was bored with Rally as a puppy, so we are sticking with agility and Koda seems to like Rally so far. It's what works for you and the dog together. Each dog has such a unique personality, you might be surprised.
Once you get AKC PAL or traditional registration, think you are good to enter without formal training should you choose to forego it. The risk you run is not having the experience be the best it could be and could be a stress factor for your dog later. Sometimes we bring that stress to the table with our insecurity of the unknown. At least one class would help for Rally.
You have some great advice to get you started. Maybe read about both types of events online and see what interests you most.
I found a couple links that may help you with Rally, without a class  . I do think you need to register with AKC.
Rally Signs: Rally signs
AKC Rally Regulations: Rally Regulations
Check for Canine Good Citizen classes to see how you feel about beginning obedience training. It all starts with the basics and CGC is a good way to begin a working relationship with the dog.
Have fun. Very generous of you to think about what the dog needs. | | | | |
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MACH2 Aslan
MACH2, RAE, XF,- EAC, EJC, R2-CL,- etc. |
| | Barked: Sun Nov 8, '09 4:08pm PST | | | | | | Asher said:
"Competive Obedience is more about precision, Rally more about relationship. If you are looking to prove your dog, Obedience is probably the route to go. If you are looking for fun, I'd suggest Rally."
Bosley gave a great response, and I'll add to it. Asher, I suspect you've never competed in formal Obedience beyond the Novice level, or you wouldn't have that feeling at all. Formal Obedience is ALL about relationship. How do I get my dog to do a ring-long "go out" in Utility if he doesn't trust me? How do I get my dog to happily (growling with enthusiasm all the way out to his dumbbell) retrieve if we don't have a great relationship"? How do I get him to run like a mad man for his dumbbell or in his directed jumping if he doesn't LOVE obedience?
There's more "relationship" involved in formal Obedience than Rally. I suggest instead of slamming formal Obedience, you give it a try. You'll find out a whole bunch you've been missing. Just muddle through Novice and find the fun challenges in the Open/Utility levels.
And, yes, all the competitive canine sports are about "relationship." I hope you do realize this.
As for the "prove" statement, I agree with Bosley. If you're competing...you're proving. That's what competition is. It's about showing off what you have trained to date. Whether it's Rally, obedience, agility, lure coursing, field or whatever.
As for the "fun" statement, why do you assume Rally is more fun than formal Obedience? I find it just the opposite. I find Rally boring and easy (as does my dog), and formal Obedience to be way more fun. "Fun" is very much in the eye of the beholder. It all depends on the challenge level you are looking for. If you want a lower challenge, I'd suggest Rally. If you're looking for a harder challenge, I'd suggest formal Obedience. Many competitors start in Rally, get through the levels and want more. They then move on to formal Obedience where the challenges are much greater - and therefore in my mind - more fun.
I'm starting my new pup in Rally. If he enjoys obedience, I'll move him to formal obedience later in his career. His main sport is far and away agility. My Obedience boy has gone through Rally (and found it wanting). He LOVES formal Obedience and whines and goes nuts when the dumbbell comes out. Aslan, who obviously is mainly an agility dog, also found Rally boring. He finds Obedience boring, too, so after getting his RAE, he now just does agility.
I think it's important to look at your dog and do the sport that best fits the dog's personality and desires. | | | | |
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