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The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

  
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Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Wed Oct 9, '13 8:58pm PST 
I've given several examples where dogs do not violate the law (i.e. could not get kicked out of stores) but behave absolutely unacceptably.

To add to the list, yesterday I was in a Starbucks where this was happening. The dog was definitely not out of control barking, but once every minute or two, it would bark. Unacceptable. But you certainly couldn't kick that SD out.

Education is irrelevant here, because the SD and handler were within the law. That's the entire point: the law, as currently written, allows unacceptable behavior.

The law gives SD users loads of leeway on this and for good reason, but unfortunately people have taken advantage of it to the point where it now needs to be changed.
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Member Since
08/29/2013
 
 
Barked: Wed Oct 9, '13 9:28pm PST 
Certification will never happen. Too many reasons why it would absolutely not work. Enough said.
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Link

Hero of Hyrule
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 10, '13 6:45pm PST 
Nova, I'd like to know where you got this idea, because you're saying it with quite a bit of authority. Personally when I read "not in control of the handler" I would say that barking every few minutes or sniffing product on shelves would certainly qualify. I highly doubt that behavior is in control of the handler, if they were given a choice I'm sure the majority of them would choose for that not to happen. You could argue a fundamental change to the business for both, as I'd say most people wouldn't want to buy groceries that have dog germs all over them, or listen to a dog bark while drinking their morning coffee.

That said however, I fail to see why sniffing shelves is being given as a legitimate reason to restrict the rights of the disabled. That seems like a pretty big overreaction. IMO the argue for certification is a lot of grasping at straws.
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Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Fri Oct 11, '13 7:04pm PST 
To the person who said that certification will never happen because there are too many problems with it, how has it worked in every single other country on the planet? You don't hear the English, Australians, or Canadians complaining. To be honest, you also don't hear the majority of SD users in the US complaining either. Dogster attracts a bunch of people of a certain viewpoint, but one that, in my experience, is not shared by the majority of American SD users.

So to be honest, I think think the folks against certification are the ones grasping at straws.

Link, I recognize that a lot of our experiences are almost entirely location-dependent. I live in a place where lots of people try to bring their dogs into stores, and all the stores put up "no dogs except service dogs" signs...and then all of a sudden everyone had a "service dog." Which causes a lot of problems for actual SD users, inconveniences the rest of us who abide by the policy, and is just plain wrong. My parents live in a place where it's not really an issue, so I can understand where people who say "it's not an issue so don't mess with it" are coming from. But it definitely is an issue some places.

All I'll say about the two examples I gave is that I come from a family of lawyers and no business owner would ever win a case under the current law where s/he kicked out a SD for an occasional bark, or for sniffing a shelf.

(Ooh, and I when I say "Certification is needed," I don't mean to sound like I'm talking with too much authority. I assume that everyone knows it means "I believe certification is needed" since I'm the one writing it and obviously other people feel differently smile )
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Link

Hero of Hyrule
 
 
Barked: Fri Oct 11, '13 9:06pm PST 
Nova, if Dogster attracts a certain "type" with a certain viewpoint that you clearly don't agree with, why do you still come here? It seems like you just want to argue. I also have to wonder at what community of service dog handlers you are getting this information from, I can make a pretty educated guess, though. The very large majority of service dog handlers I know and talk to about certification are very much against it. That being said most of the SD handlers I associate with are fellow PSD handlers, who arguably have the most to lose if certification were to happen.

You are assuming that those that are saying fakers aren't an issue are against certification because they don't really deal with fakers. That is a wrong assumption. I have dealt with many obvious fakers and I am still against certification.

Coming from a family of lawyers you should know better than to make broad statements like that, only a judge can determine if those circumstances would hold under ADA law. I also wasn't saying you were saying certification was needed with authority, I was referring to your claim that you knew exactly what would win in a court of law was, because you simply can't.

You're changing your story from nosing products on a shelf and moving them around to "sniffing a shelf," and barking every minute or two to "an occasional bark." There is a big difference between those behaviors. I don't think most people would have a problem with your latter examples, dogs are not robots and things happen. However, if I were around a claimed service dog that was barking every couple minutes, I WOULD go to a manager or higher up and ask them to ask the handler to get their dog under control or ultimately remove the dog because it is clearly not under control of the handler. Last weekend I went clothes shopping and Link barked (once) in the changing room, he was startled by a loud noise and has never done that before. If someone tried to kick me out then, yes I'd have a problem, but if I couldn't get him to stop barking, IMO they'd be perfectly within the law to ask me to leave, and I'd comply with no issue.

I think this whole faker thing is getting down to nitpicking honestly. If the dog is truly causing a problem then they can legally be asked to leave. If they sniffed a shelf once? Get. Over. It. Life is hard enough without being policed by the goodie two shoes patrol, and no one, human or animal, is perfect. I'm so tired of the judging, and it seems to be coming from a certain segment of the SD handler community which I find incredibly disturbing and disheartening.
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Harley, SD,- CGC, TDI

Super Service- Boy!
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 12, '13 4:25pm PST 
Nova, Canada is doing away with certification. I DO hear the British and the Aussies complaining about it. It's not happening anytime soon here. The DOJ has taken a stance on it, against it. It will be a good while before a new rewrite occurs. I can't say it won't ever happen, but the vast majority of those for it are program people, and the percentage of dogs that are program dogs is rapidly declining. I can't say it will NEVER happen, but I don't see it and I will fight against it.

As for a dog that barked every few minutes, ever thought that the dog could be alerting or in training? For a dog sniffing shelves, ever thought that they could be in training? A dog sniffing shelves is inappropriate SD behavior, yes, but does it hurt anyone?

Besides, mandating certification or testing wouldn't prevent that. All a PAT means is that a team can pass that test in that environment on that day. The training NEVER stops. I've seen ADI trained dogs misbehave while working. Certification doesn't fix that.
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Nova

1184372
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 19, '13 4:06pm PST 
Yes, I did think that the dog could be in training (even though it was marked as "Service Dog") but, as a raiser myself who has been in many, many situations with dogs in training, I know that all of those behaviors are unacceptable and need to be stopped, regardless. The organization I raise with has an "ignore barking" policy too (no corrections), but NEVER in a public place where other dogs aren't allowed. If that were to happen, you leave immediately. When a dog's in training, you never take the dog to a place you can't leave if you need to. If you're incapable of doing that, you shouldn't be training.

Link, I think we're talking semantics here. Nosing, barking, however you want to describe it, the behavior I was describing was was annoying and inappropriate but not expel-able.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still on this forum. It does attract a particular crowd. A few years ago when I first came, there were higher standards, people were clear that OTing is something not everyone can do (but some certainly can!) and that not every pet Fluffy is capable of being a SD when you've gone to 16 doctors and found the one that will write you a note. Now, things have changed. I know it's driven off a lot of people, and yep, it's driven off me too as this will be my last post. Which I know you guys will be fine with, but don't think that just because you've driven me off means that I think it's okay for somebody to decide that oh, they actually are disabled and that Fluffy needs to accompany them everywhere now.

New people come on and say that their dog is displaying some ridiculously inappropriate behavior, and the dogster crowd tells them to put on a metaphorical training band-aid when what they have is a lethal hemorrhage.

I guess if faking's okay with you guys and vest-wearing is optional, I'll just take my extremely well-behaved retired guide dog current pet with me places. Although I'm not disabled, I honestly feel so much better and happier having her around. If anyone asks why she's there, I'll start going off on them about how you can't ask that question. That seems to be the dogster way and moreover no one will know the difference. At least she'll be better behaved than many of the "true SDs" (according to you guys) that we see out and about.

And with that, I'm leaving. Maybe I'll be banned at this point as dissent and debate and critical thinking is never welcome at dogster, but I don't really care. Over and out. Best of luck to all of you.
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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Sat Oct 19, '13 9:20pm PST 
As for a dog that barked every few minutes, ever thought that the dog could be alerting or in training?

Sounds like a dog that needs to be taught a better way to alert. Barking "every few minutes" isn't what most people would deem reasonable in a non pet-centric store; it disrupts business.

For a dog sniffing shelves, ever thought that they could be in training?
A good trainer knows when the dog is ready for non-pet friendly locals. I can see one or two corrections, but after that, if the dog can't/won't behave, the trainer needs to remove it from the situation and take it to a pet friendly location to work on it instead of leaving the public with a bad image of the trainer, as well as SDs in general.

A dog sniffing shelves is inappropriate SD behavior, yes, but does it hurt anyone?

It may not be their intention, but it hurts the rest of us. I'm starting Scooter's successor in public. It's visibly obvious that he's a young dog (and he's apt to be baby-faced); I'm in two states that allow me access with him, yet I run into issues thanks to the ill-behaved train wrecks that have come before us. He's a Beagle; I expect there will be times when he will air scent as he matures, but I also expect him to knock it off as we walk by human food or dog treats. Either way, my training trips with him are just that...for training; he makes a mis-step and I remove him from the situation because I'm not going to be "that person".

Businesses need to take back their rights; ask the two questions, stop allowing people to put their so-called SD's in the store's carts, and kick out dogs*** that growl (or otherwise show aggression) or otherwise act inappropriately. ***while allowing the owners the opportunity to finish their shopping.
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Harley, SD,- CGC, TDI

Super Service- Boy!
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 24, '13 7:35pm PST 
Nova: Just in case you are still reading: Vesting IS optional. There ARE legitimate reasons not to vest. First, for some strange reason vests are an idiot magnet. People leave us alone when unvested but approach us like a circus side show when vested. For some people, that causes huge anxiety. A vest doesn't make a dog a service dog and not vesting doesn't make one not a service dog. Second, there may come a time when you can't vest your dog. I ran into this when Harley had to have surgery to have a growth removed. He was medically cleared after 3 days to work, but could not wear his vest for 2 weeks due to the location of the stitches. So, we didn't vest. I am more comfortable vesting, but it is MY choice, as it is with every handler.

Scooter: I agree barking should not be an alert. I've often told others that. However, the law states that barking alone is not a reason to remove a dog unless it is interfering with the fundamental nature of the business. So, Wal Mart can't remove a dog for barking, but a movie theater can. I have Harley's successor and she is no where near ready to go into non pet friendly stores, and when we eventually take that leap, I wi be as cautious with her as I was when training Harley.

My point is this: Sometimes we get too tunnel visioned and lose sight of reality. We see a dog in one situation and condemn them and the handler as a bad team or fakers. But, the fact could be that they are early training or simply having a bad day. You can not tell me your dog had never done anything that has embarrassed you in that moment. Harley and I are a great team, but I have a handful of funny (well, now funny...not then) Harley stories that remind me that our dogs are not robots. We can not judge a team based on a single encounter. Would you like to be judged based your worst day?
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Link

Hero of Hyrule
 
 
Barked: Fri Nov 1, '13 2:24pm PST 
Oh geez. I've been on this board for years, and the things you are describing are few and far between, and NO ONE is "okay" with fakers. If anything it's the members with a clear and persistent stigma against PSDs handlers and OTs that are driving off the knowledgeable and helpful people who used to regularly post very informative responses to these types of problems. There are always going to be uneducated people who should not be giving advice or information, that doesn't mean they represent a certain community or what they are saying is at all accepted by that community. I for one am glad this will be your last drama filled and over exaggerated post, Nova. wave


Harely, can you tell us more or direct us to info about Canada getting rid of certification? My boyfriend and I have been thinking of moving to Victoria, but honestly the ADA is keeping me here.
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