ADA require paperwork!!

The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

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Lucy Ribeiro

Barked: Sun Sep 22, '13 2:20pm PST 
When will they ever be a bill or law passed when they can require paperwork it seems like the only option for weeding out these fake service dog people. My dog nearly got attacked by yet another fake SD in a store. This time was more annoying as I was at a cvs pharmacy and had to keep letting people go ahead of me! The wprst part was the pharmacy staff not letting me be helped from another side where the aggressive non SD was at or asking the non SD to leave or move at least.

One of the other patrons offered to hold my dog while I went to the counter. Regardless is there any petitions going around to have them start requiring paperwork. Would make my life ten times easier with my SD. I live in LA land of people with pocket pets and pets in purses and other bags sneaking in and everything.

It's a growing issue and having my SD almost attacked is getting irritating.

Woo-woo- whineybutt
Barked: Sun Sep 22, '13 8:05pm PST 
Paperwork won't solve anything. People will just forge paperwork / doctor letters or buy into one of the many online scams so the paperwork arrives at their doorstep.

all you can really do is educate.. there are no laws / regulations that can be passed that wouldn't seriously hinder those who are really disabled.

Also, service dogs aren't all too common. I don't think it is fair to say that a DA service dog is a fake.. If you think about it, service dogs work with and around people.. there is a very slim chance of them running into another dog unless they go to dog-populated areas. So I don't think a DA service dog is too bad (though it isn't something I would encourage).

Not saying that they are / aren't a legitimate team.. but trying to put another point of view into it.

Edited by author Sun Sep 22, '13 8:09pm PST

Lucy Ribeiro

Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 8:53am PST 
I honestly think I was more venting about this than anything else. I did educate the store and alerted the store manager that if a dog behaves that way even if it has a vest like my dog and tags and so certification like mine if they SD behaves aggressive and poses a direct threat to your other patrons you are legally allowed to remove the SD whether certified or not. They had no clue and frankly were scared to ask her to remove her dog because they didn't want to get sued. However I gave them the cards I carry with the actual ADA laws and regulations on it. What they can and cannot ask and left it on a good note.

At the actual pharmacy part I alerted them that if that ever happens again what they should do is move to another side to help the handler of a SD like me who was forced to allow the people behind me in front of me because of the animal being overly aggressive and I was threatened the dog would hurt my SD and they replied with we wanted to ask her to remove her dog but the cvs management told them not to ask any questions of a dog owner because they didn't want to be sued. So it seems like because people who fake SD they think people or business owners can't ask any questions at all and this is extremely in true. THere are things they can ask. I also tell them to look at the behavior of the SD to tell if it is fake or not. A real SD will be more focused on the handler and will be behaving. Yes some SD don't go to basic training but inside a store or business that handler will have to control the animal.

You would be suprised how many SD I see when I go places and the real ones walk right past my dog ignoring each other because they are more focused on there handler. Thanks for your point of view though this is why I posted it.

Wanted another point of view and any idea what could possibly bring this to a end or at least minamize it?

Also what does DA mean? I may be young but I am still learning short computer talk


Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 12:10pm PST 
Dog Aggressive
Ginger DSA- ThD TT CGC - &hearts

My Angel
Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 3:30pm PST 
There used to be a man in my area with a guide dog (not fake) who when I walked my dogs and we saw them, his guide dog would back, growl and lunge towards my dogs (from far away/across the street).

I hardly ever see service dogs here in Chicago surprisingly considering it is a big city.
Lucy Ribeiro

Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 4:02pm PST 
The ADA itself defines this in regards to a un controllable or aggressive SD:

A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.

I tell businesses this all the time because if a animal who was being DA is doing this behavior and the handler refuses to correct it or cannot correct it the business has the right to ask them to remove the animal even if it is a certified or licensed SD.

It might be a good idea to tell your neighbor that who has the working dog that can be aggressive because these are things I have seen happen where dogs have been asked to get removed. This dog was ridiculous I mean it attempted to jump from the walker 3 times to get to my animal and quite frankly you couldnt have paid me enough to walk my dog near this thing. Living in Los Angeles I have seen tons of SD's and yes I have seen my fare share of Legit ones and some that I just look at and go seriously there is no freaking way that is a SD. People out here are under the impression they cannot ask anything about a dog walking into a business when that isnt true. I have had only one resturant who actually knew the laws and some patron was being rude to me and the owner walked over to them and asked them to leave because they were Muslim and appareantly it was against there religion to be near a dog of dark color because they are evil or watever.

The business owner then just replied leave now and they actually proceeded to leave. Was kind of nice to see someone who actually cared to read the laws know them and protect me it was awesome.

Anywho its just a growing issue I have had exactly one SD try to attack my animal and it was a daschund and they are grouchy pretty much all the time so is what it is. The owner however took efective measures to stop the behavior which is what they need to do. However the one inside CVS had no vest and no markings stating it was a SD at all. My family and friends all keep telling me how nice it is that I actually put a vest on my dog indentifying her as a SD and have tags and more than enough paperwork for her. I also have taken the license exams which arent required but I did them anyways. Nice to have the paperwork if the time ever comes for it is what I always say.

Regardless this dog looked for one very scroungy like the lady wasnt taking care of him at all. I heard him barking when before I got to the pharmacy and before he could actually see my SD so he must have been unfriendly to people aswell not sure.

Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 6:54pm PST 
Lucy, just wanted to say I agree with you about certification. I started out not supporting certification but the past five years or so has caused me to change my mind, and I now very strongly support certification requirements. I actually find that most SD users I know agree with me, although this message board seems to attract those who don't.

(And if a guide dog was aggressive, that should absolutely be reported both to the owner, city, and guide dog school. Dogs get released from the program if they even look at you funny when they were 3 months old! Guide dog schools have absolutely zero tolerance for aggression. But the fact remains that most misbehaving "SDs" could never, at any point in their lives, have become certified if that were a requirement. Most misbehaving "SDs" did not come from a program/evaluation up to ADI standards. Certification would solve 95% of the problem.)
Lucy Ribeiro

Barked: Mon Sep 23, '13 8:06pm PST 
Nova I do really agree with you. Would just make it so much bloody easier to not have people coming inside places might just weed them out I would hope. However just like you most of the SD teams I have met also wish they could requiring SD paperwork or certification would be easier. I agree this forum is attracting the other side of the coin.

My dog has no aggression towards anything and ignores any dog whenever she has her working vest on but if her vest is off she will still look at me and ask if she can go say hello to the other dog. However still I believe that any dog that shows aggression for any reason shouldnt be considered a SD because that could be a very bad influence towards all SD.

Barked: Tue Sep 24, '13 11:53am PST 
Here's my question and dilemma with requiring paperwork to prove a true SD (& by the way I don't mean this in an argumentative way, I'm truly curious how it would work/be enforced/how it would effect disabled handlers).

1.) Where would the disabled handlers get this paperwork from? Who would determine what process is needed to make sure the dogs are SD material? How much would this certification cost the disabled handler? Etc.?

2.) I feel that as with anything in life where there's a rule or law that there's always going to be someone who finds a way to break it. Now I'm not saying that rules or laws are pointless but it's true that people who truly are determined to get around whatever law it may be, will find a way.

microscopic mutt
Barked: Tue Sep 24, '13 2:11pm PST 
Lucy wrote:

I did educate the store and alerted the store manager that if a dog behaves that way even if it has a vest like my dog and tags and so certification like mine ...

I also have taken the license exams which arent required but I did them anyways.

So. You seem to believe that your SD is already certified. big laugh I hate to be the one to break it to you but she's not - at least not in any kind of meaningful way.

Why can I say that with such confidence? Because there IS no meaningful certification for owner-trained service dogs.

Oh sure, you can spend a few bucks for a vest and an ID card from FreeMyPaws or USSDR or one of their ilk - but of course, so can everybody else. A trained dog isn't necessary; heck, dog ownership isn't even required (I've heard of people registering a bicycle and a hamster with USSDR). So if your dog's "certification" came from one of those places, you gave your money to one of the biggest contributors to faking that exists.

Then there's the ADI/IGDB model that Nova likes so much. The way that one works is simple. When a dog is ready to graduate from one of those programs, they fire up a laser printer and print out a certificate that reads something like "{Schoolname} certifies that {dogname} has met our training standards and is hereby a fully qualified service dog." There's nothing stopping you from going to Kinkos and doing the same thing; just substitute your name for {schoolname}. Or, heck, just make up your own school name! Lots of creativity possible with this one.

I'm very confused about your reference to "license exams" - could you elaborate on that? On the other hand, you previously mentioned being in California so I assume that when you mentioned tags you were talking about the California service dog tag. That's absolutely no big deal to get - all you have to do is sign an affidavit saying that your dog is an SD or SDiT. Notice this part: ---> SDiT
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