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Seizure response dog: Owner trained or programme trained?

The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

  
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Member Since
05/17/2012
 
 
Barked: Thu May 17, '12 5:47am PST 
Hello, this is my first post here. I Would like a dog for my epileptic and autistic 5 year old son. i would be the dog handler as my son is nonverbal. It would be great if the dog could be trained to respond to my sons seizures and alert me. Otherwise the dog would be around my son for his therapies as well. I am trying to find out if an owner trained dog or a dog trained by an organization and then placed with us would be better? I am in contact with an organization who would be happy to work with us as well as with a Trainer who thinks it would be better if she chooses the right puppy and we train the dog with her help ourselves. This way the dog can bond more with our son she sais and possibly also pick up more on his seizures. Please let me know what your experience is. Thank you.

Edited by author Thu May 17, '12 7:12am PST

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Blondie

Love is eternal- hope.
 
 
Barked: Thu May 17, '12 12:54pm PST 
Hello smile Iam working with seizure & alert dogs for several years. My first SD was trained to prevent my isotonic seizures. I have problems with heart and blood circulation system. Low blood pressure causes, that in some specific situations my brain have not enough oxygen to work in normal way.

When I start to had some health problems she was jumping around me, licking my hands and face so, let me know for sure , that something will happen.

She don“t need any special training for starting doing this. I had her in service almost for 9 years. Most of this time I thought, that every alert dog should be like she. Natural sensitive and patient. So it was a big dissapointment for me, when I start to train seizure dogs and recognize, that every one is an individual and so are the ways how they respond and how they are trained.

I had a lucky hand laugh out loud But you dont need to.

So for now I would like to tell you some of my observations done by the years. (because) I think that it might helps.

1, You need to find a trustworthy organisation. At begining you need to know: any purbreed cannot take you a real guarantee of alert/response talented dog.
Puppies raised in a special breed have a good base for mild and kind temperament and also guarantee of right socialisation. It should be useful and might help. But it has nothing to do with their response talent.

2, Talent to respond is not hereditary conditional. Most of dog according to their sensory receptions have a good predisposition to recognise that attack will come. But only any of them have a needing to deal with.

3, This needing is conditional to pet temperament, enviroment and it also depends on the hendler relation with his dog. The main advantage of raising your own puppy is that you can make a strong bound between the dog and child. But you need to have a delicate approach to your puppy and all the things around and also some kind of know-how.

4, If you could find a good trainer (need to have an attack disorder!). He could choose for you young dog already responding. The dogs respond on different occasions, (because every attack is individual - it has an individual circumstances and individual running.) The dog will need to be retrained, according to your needings. And it spend some time to create a bond and make it feel at home. But at the end you prevent a risk to choose an inappropriate puppy for you and your family or do some mistake.

5, Good instructor can help you, not only with dog behaviour problems, but also in a time of hospitalisation ex. and summer holidays. And he can offer to teach your dog much more useful skills, than you can imagine.

At the end... I would prefer a posibility of choose. If you have an autistic child you need to find a harmonized couple smile Not only for your soon, but also for dog to stay a fit in a good mental condition-to be happy and able to serve. Rising a puppy is really exhousting. Even more, if you have a lot to do with your own child. Definitely, I would prefer a youngster. This is my point ow view.

Edited by author Thu May 17, '12 1:09pm PST

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Happy

The Boy Wonder
 
 
Barked: Thu May 17, '12 1:19pm PST 
This is never a black and white issue. But I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you may be better off with a program dog.

This can depend on a lot of factors but what I'm looking at is that you already have a lot on your plate. Trying to add a puppy to the mix and making sure nothing goes wrong in the socializing and training on your end could very easily become a nightmare. Then there is a good chance you might end up with a wash out. Are you and your son going to be able to handle putting all your hopes in a pup with a strong chance that it won't work out.

Programs work with you to make sure that you get a good team. But you want to make sure it is a Good program. ADI has a list of programs that follow their standards of training and while this isn't a requirement, looking into their standards for public access and training are a good starting point.

Now I'll state something important... No program or trainer can guarantee an alert for seizures, anyone who promises an alert is lying to you. Alerts of this type can't be trained, because we do not know what the dog is alerting To. However most programs can at the very least train a response to seizures, things like coming to get you, making sure your son is safe. Many times (but not always) a response dog will learn to alert, but you have to be able to read their cues because often the first alerts are very subtle. This is the point where having a trainer in the wings can help you shape these early alerts into something better.

In the end you'll have to go with what will work best for you, but I suspect that a program would be easier for you in the long run as trying to train an untrained puppy, and handle the day to day issues with your son could easily become overwhelming.
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Darwin CGC- TDI SD

I'm just Lucky- to be here.
 
 
Barked: Tue May 29, '12 12:19pm PST 
After having 3 dogs do this. I can say I would NEVER go with a program I just can't see myself getting a dog at 2 years and EVER see it reliably giving me WARNING of an on coming seizure. D, Ranger and Moxie give me up to five minutes WARNING of something happening and then stay with me...without that I wouldn't be independent, no driving no living alone, nothing...I don't see myself going with a program EVER because then I'm starting at 2 years old from scratch....

At 4 months old Ranger started alerting, at 6 months old, he's the BEST that I HAVE. Which you know I think is really saying something...he is learning from the other dogs and it might just be him...naturally...or seeing the others work, but he really WANTS to get it right. I am happy to share a video of him working by pm of anyone who wants to see it. My neurologist asked to see them, but no I don't think the cost or risk associated with a program is worth it, as it is so personal the seizures and the dogs can learn SO MUCH from each other and by being with me those formative years.
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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Tue May 29, '12 2:56pm PST 
Darwin, you'd be surprised at just how many program trained seizure RESPONSE dogs have become alert & response once they are placed. Generally, if a dog has the ability AND it hasn't been tapped or negatively reinforced, extinction will not occur. Some programs are purposely looking to hire people with certain types of seizures so they can not only observe the dogs looking for alerters, R+ them, and also take notes for the few scientists who are still interested in that sort of info (since the main study is over); the programs can't come out and call them A&R and admit that even if the dog showed some ability while at training, they may or may not do it for the client as there are soo many aspects to it that are still unknown.

Also, the OP is looking for a dog for multiple disabilities (seizures and autism) and stated response work in relation to the seizure disorder; specifically to come alert her. Realistically, the previous suggestions of a obtaining a dog via a program are more than sound; between time, $, and issues with washouts, a program would be a "sure thing" in this situation.

BTW, Scooter came home at 4.5 months. Less than 2 weeks later, he was alerting (with no other dog to look to). Bretta did it roughly 6 hours after meeting me as we were driving home; she was 2 and had been in training to be a narcotics dog. She's a prime example of a dog who has the ability, but no opportunity to use it.
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Voltaire SD

Did somebody say- deer??
 
 
Barked: Tue May 29, '12 7:59pm PST 
A program dog would be a "sure thing"??

Please explain. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about that kind of a statement!!
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Happy

The Boy Wonder
 
 
Barked: Tue May 29, '12 9:14pm PST 
Meaning in this case they could guarantee that the dog could work with the autistic symptoms as well as respond (alert to mother) when seizures did happen. Programs generally stand by the training of their dogs meaning that with a young child(ren) in the home that it would be a lot more prudent for the OP to go to a program if the family had no training experience (actually even with it managing the training of a service dog as well as dealing with an autistic child could be more of a challenge than most people could handle)
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Scooter

Work hard; Play- harder.
 
 
Barked: Tue May 29, '12 10:50pm PST 
Happy nailed what my response would have been. way to go In addition, sometimes people forget that washing out a dog can be harder on the kids than on the adults, especially in situations like this. Then there are the other considerations that are more unique to Autism/Aspergers, especially children...coat texture, finding the perfect personality match between not only child and dog, but dog and ultimate handler, etc. Good programs take care of that. (Yes, I realize we tend to tell adults to not fixate on coat texture/color, but things are a bit different when dealing with kids who may not be very verbal, KWIM?)

There are some aspects of response work that I've noticed seem to be not utilized/trained in a lot of OT'd dogs when their task lists are discussed VS what programs train. The biggest examples are recovery position(s) & doing physical tasks like pulling bathtub drains. While I can understand that some adults are adverse to sitting in a tub vs shower, I know that most kids like to play in them (and I'm not here to debate the pros/cons of children in tubs).
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Member Since
05/17/2012
 
 
Barked: Wed May 30, '12 8:28am PST 
Thank you for all your responses. I am leaning towards getting a puppy and visiting a dog training school with the puppy regularly. I have been in touch with a trainer who specializes in teaching pet dogs to respond. I think it would be good for the dog to see the seizures of my son which are extremely suptle from the very start as they are not that common. Also my son is non verbal, I think a puppy if with him from the start might bond with him and get used to his mannerisms? But I will go on a few workshops before really deciding. There are special workshops, here were we live for parents of autistic kids, to help them with the process of getting a pet dog and then training the dog. Most autism support dog programmes here are completely booked for the next 3 years...the seizure dog programmes do not work often with young kids.
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Darwin CGC- TDI SD

I'm just Lucky- to be here.
 
 
Barked: Wed May 30, '12 8:31am PST 
Hey Darwin, I am not a fan of taking out posts, but I did in this case..
It's nothing personal. Just the way you portray organizations, which train dogs for individuals with disabilities.
I think it should be everyone's free choice to either OT or pick a program to do the trainin for them.
As to the 50+ commands.. many of those are connected to obedience, which is so important for a SD and their handlers to function.
You got to remember, the person, who receives a dog from an organization is disabled and a SD should have exceptional manners, respond to commands right away and be a kind dog. Also the average person should be able to handle the dog, everyone should be. A dog, which knows a variety of commands and tasks, is a flexible dog. It's just like with humans, the more we know, the better we can understand situations, the better we can adjust to different situations and the better and more confident we can move around in society.

I think a program has their reasons to train a dog a certain way. They go with the experience they have and the needs of their "average" clients. It's a question of experience and feedback from handlers over the years.

OT or organization trained - no matter what, the dog will respond to the individual person just fine once they live together. Organizations are not factories. The dogs aren't cars. They bring a certain standard and it's up to the handler to either make use of it or not.
I find it not ok to disrespect the work an organization does. There should be respect and acceptance for both, OTs and OrgT.
Best, sonja and the crew

Edited by moderator Sat Jun 9, '12 9:13pm PST

Edited by forums moderator
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