Where does the line lay for 'fake service dog'

The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

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Happy

The Boy Wonder

Barked: Sun May 13, '12 8:09pm PST


	So it finely happened to me, and I would have dug up a post to comment on it and left it at that but the whole situation brought up a few questions. I met one of those 'service dogs'. It was an unmarked shih tzu, and Happy and I were about to turn the corner when it lunged and growled at us... It was on a flexi lead (By all that is holy I hate those things) and it's owner/handler whatever was on a motorized scooter halfway around the corner. It didn't attack, actually after the first growl it went all sweet kisses and annoying jumping on Happy, the thing was climbing all over my dog and wiggling and seemed thrilled to see Happy (I wasn't so thrilled since him trying to move away from it unbalanced me and nearly knocked me over. I asked the guy politely if it was a service dog and he got very defensive and started to pull out (and I quote) The prescription from his doctor. This is were the law, and people in general irk me. According to the law there was Nothing that the store could say to him. The dog was more or less under his control in a lose interpretation though it didn't seem trained at all. The dog wasn't aggressive. I'll list what bothered me about the whole situation ignoring the fact that I'm fairly sure it wasn't a 'service dog' even if he did have a prescription for one. 1. It wasn't marked as a service dog, not vest no bandanna, no tag, nothing. While I know the law allows it, and there are a number of people who maintain that this should still be a right I can see no reason for a dog to at least be marked in Some way. Bandanna's or slip on collars don't have to be bucked or messed with. I'll admit that I have occasionally gone in a store without Happy clearly marked. But I'm rethinking my position on this, because I already have enough trouble with the public without making it foggy on if my dog is a service dog. I think there should be Some way that Anyone who can actively use a service dog can mark them. 2. It was on a flexi lead. I can think of no reason for a service dog to be in a Store on an unlocked flexi lead. (I don't like flexi's but if you're using it for exercise outside that's a different kettle of fish) If the dog needs to work that far away from you there is always the option of dropping the leash, or taking the leash off. A flexi is just a hazard to everyone and everything around you. I can think of no argument that makes flexi leads okay.. if you can hold a flexi you can hold a leash. And if your dog is working at a distance as a service dog you should have enough control over the dog to control it by voice. 3. The dog Mauled my dog, aggressive or not it was in Happy's face and overall highly annoying. It's Never okay to let your dog maul another dog. Service dog or otherwise. It is increasingly not okay for a service dog to act this way. Period... 4. Later I saw the dog in the buggy of the moterized cart laying down. It was quiet, not moving around... but the cart is not the place for the dog. I'll freely admit that Happy has set in between my feet from time to time. But he's sitting at my Feet, on the floor of the cart... not In the buggy with the food. Seriously... I know you have a small dog but that doesn't exempt you from general good manners. (this is not aimed at Any 'yous' on the boards here... just in general frustration) - A prescription does not a service dog make. All of these things are in a very murky section of the law. Nothing about this dog there was provably against the law... And this bothers me. I don't really know what sort of solution would fix this... and please lets not turn this into a war zone.. but really I'd like some feed back here. I love that the law allows for me to have independence and use a service dog. And this man also should have the right to have a service dog if he needs one but there has to be a way that there could be more control over it without being restrictive. My problem with this whole situation is that there was nothing he was doing that could have gotten him thrown out under the law.. but that doesn't mean that a well trained service dog should act like that.

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I miss you, U

Barked: Sun May 13, '12 8:51pm PST


	*Nothing about this dog there was provably against the law...* An SD may be legally excluded from a public accommodation if it is not under control and the handler does not take immediate action to control it. (That's from memory but should be close to verbatim.) It sounds like the dog mauling Happy falls into that category; therefore, it may be possible that the dog could have been kicked out on those grounds. That's not meant to undercut your primary argument, which I'm still mulling over. On the one hand, I would hate to see the ADA made more restrictive; on the other, fakers are SUCH a huge problem. (I probably see 3 or 4 fakers for every legit SD I see, and it's not hard to tell the two apart, either.) It's hard to tell what would be the best way to resolve this situation. - NoNameYet

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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3

Barked: Sun May 13, '12 10:30pm PST


	As much as I'd hate to see Service Dog Owners get restrictions, I have always wondered about that gray area of the law - if it's not legal for people to ask for proof, then how do you prove a fake Service Dog is a fake other than unruly behavior and even in that case, can the dog be determined fake and thrown out of a business? I've ALWAYS wondered about this and always wondered HOW they could help this problem, because I consistently see as many obviously fake Service Dogs out here as I do real Service Dogs. That said, there was once where my dad took my dog into a store with him and I FLIPPED out on him - not only was it NOT a dog friendly establishment, but my dog IS NOT a service dog and I refuse to fake it and make it harder on people who do have to use SD's. He got reprimanded for that one and has never taken my dog without me since. My fiance also did it ONCE, before I explained things to him and WHY it bothered me so much. He never did it again. I also explained to my fiance why I didn't like my dog tied outside of stores and he never did that again either. But that part of the law where it prohibits proof of the dog being a real SD makes it hard to distinguish and throw out the fake ones. I'm not saying that SD handlers should be forced to show proof or be harassed about it, but I do wish that there was a clear solution to this. I have worked in several malls and establishments that were not dog friendly and have had several people fake service dogs. One had his lab mix in one of those kids car cart things, pushing it around(obviously doing it because he found it entertaining). Another was walking her jack russel around the food court, then picking the dog up to show it how chocolate was made at the Rocky Mountain House Chocolate Factory through the window. Ugh...

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SHADOW,- Certified- Service Dog

BORN TO SERVE

Barked: Sun May 13, '12 11:02pm PST


	You should have said: Is this your service dog? What tasks/work does your service dog do for your disability? From their answer it would let you know if they are or aren't a service dog. I've seen small service dogs in baskets on the handlers motor scooter.. One of our teams in our group has a dauchsand that's a medical alert dog.. That guy is constantly looking out for his owner... If she drops something he paws which makes her stop and he gets down to p/u what was dropped. One very smart dog and a great service to her handler. I came across two fakes at the Tucson VA Hospital AGAIN!! This is the place where Shadow was attacked a couple years ago. The dog was barking, growling,etc.. I went to the info desk and asked them to please have the dog removed.. The people were pretty ticked off that they had to leave... While she was taking care of it I heard another dog barking and it was in enclosed STROLLER ... The other lady said she'll be leaving soon... I said have them GO NOW because you're required to have the dog removed sooner then later. Ailbe and Shadow Walker

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Happy

The Boy Wonder

Barked: Sun May 13, '12 11:49pm PST


	I think my main thing was shock. I haven't had a good run of days and having the dog there, first growling then climbing all over my dog made me a bit shocky so I didn't ask the question quite as I should. Just as a not this was not an owner's motorized scooters, this was one of the shopping scooters (walmart) and the dog wasn't in the buggy until sometime after he ran into me. The problem I've found in stores Especially one's like walmart that are very lawsuit scared (for good reason) is that unless it's hurting someone they won't do anything. Actually the associate training specifically states unless it poses a direct threat to the public to leave it alone. That's just my problem... It wasn't hurting anyone... and there's nothing to say he Didn't have a disability and a doctors note but because owner training is becoming more popular and because there are no hard clad standards there's nothing to say that the dog (while not acting to what I personally feel is service dog standard) didn't actually fall under the blanket of 'service dog'. It could have been task trained I don't know... and proving it was 'out of control' would have been more difficult than most business's want to try to prove. What Under Control is so murky that it leaves a lot of grey area. If this dog hadn't been in Happy's face and had been heeling with his owner vest or no vest I likely wouldn't have thought twice about it... that's were my problem sits. I don't really want to see more restrictions put on service dogs but I fear that with the rise in fakers that eventually the law will crack down and there's no telling who the guidelines will fall on and hurt... something like "dogs must be trained by a recognized school' or "dog must carry id" would be a pain at best a disaster at worst. I'm just perplexed by the situation. If it were just well mannered fakers or people who had control of their dogs... I don't think I'd care, because really there's nothing to tell a medical alert dog or some psd's from a well trained faker. I have an invisible disability, most days you can't tell there's something wrong with me... and I Really dislike the idea of having to have an ID and be questioned or harassed but there will likely come a time when something will have to be done.

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MIKA&KAI

Akita Pals- Always.

Barked: Mon May 14, '12 7:11am PST


	Happy I truly understand your dilemma. I posted quite some time ago about how it was possible to tell a service dog from a pet that someone just wants to bring with them. I wish no ill will for those who truly need service dogs for whatever reason and do not wish anyone to be kept from having their needed service dog with them but did have two incidents in a medical facility that were questionable. One was a vicious,and I mean bitey,snippy,snappy little Yorkie the the owner/handler allowed to occupy two chairs,that barked,growled and snapped at anyone that got within it's reach,there were people in walkers and with canes and crutches forced to stand to accomodate the dog,it relieved itself on the floor and furniture,and in general behaved like a spoiled pet,the other was a pug that growled at the people standing in line to sign in at the facility. Not knowing the law or wanting to cause someone an issue unnecessarily I did not say anything but did mention the two incidents to the staff,especially considering the incident with the yorkie took place near an outpatient lab in the waiting room. I posted here to ask what I should know and get opinions about wether or not these were in fact service dogs. Thankfully everyone here was very understanding and helpful. I have not seen eithe dog in the facility since,so I really do believe they were infact pets someone juust didn't leave home alone,because I have seen the owners in the facility quite a few times since. I too wish ther were a way to be certain but as I said do not want to keep someone from having difficulty having a needed service dog with them.

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Polly

Lolly girl

Barked: Mon May 14, '12 9:29am PST


	I agree with you Happy, and I think this dog may have been a comfort animal, My husband works at a campground and lake and he hears the DR's note thing all the time and 90% of the time the dog is obviously not a SD/trained...some DR's give out these letters like candy We were at Winco and an older man had a small poodle in his scooter basket, no leash, the poor dog was filthy matted needed a bath and it went crazy when it saw Polly..barking ect..and the owner makes a B-line for Polly telling his dog "look another doggie, look" YUK! I reported them and they were found and removed from the store. It would be nice if they could change the law a little...but I am afraid it would end up hurting real SD handlers.. Have a good day

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Harley, SD,- CGC, TDI

Super Service- Boy!

Barked: Mon May 14, '12 10:08am PST


	The legal line is the dog is a fake if either the handler is disabled or the dog is not task work trained. If both those criteria is met, the dog is poorly trained, but not a fake. As to what you brought up... 1) I do believe it is best practice to have the dog somehow identified as a SD, however I absolutely do NOT want to see it become law that they have to be. There are to many situations where the identification can get messed up. I'll give you a very good example...During hurricane Katrina, we lost everything not living. Had Harley been a SD at the time, we would have lost his gear. Also, a lot of handlers keep their gear in their car (I do) so they don't forget it. What if your car gets stolen? Then you lose your gear. I also had a situation when Sophie was a puppy where I was taking them to daycare, and had everyone buckled up in their seat belt harnesses. Sophie chewed Harley's harness off of him. Gear can not be replaced very quickly, and a handler should not be denied access while they are replacing it b/c crap happens. And what would the difference have been if this dog was vested other than it would have looked really bad for service dogs? 2) The Flexi...While it sounds like this particular dog should not have been on an unlocked flexi, I do know a handler that used one (her dog is now retired and she in between SDs). She had a stroke, is wheel chair bound with very limited mobility in her hands and arms. Her dog was on an unlocked flexi so that she go move to retrieve as necessary. However, she was very properly trained to do so, and it never caused a problem. If a team is going to use a flexi, they need to be very well trained in it, but there is a place for it, and the alternative is an off leash dog. (And in this case, they would legally be allowed to have the SD off leash). I don't remember what the other point now. But, you can't regulate out all the bad apples. People who are determined to fake will find a way to do it. What would end up happening is legitimate people with legitimate needs will get hurt.

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Lucille

I am the Sock- Bandit!!!

Barked: Mon May 14, '12 12:12pm PST


	" I don't really want to see more restrictions put on service dogs but I fear that with the rise in fakers that eventually the law will crack down and there's no telling who the guidelines will fall on and hurt... something like "dogs must be trained by a recognized school' or "dog must carry id" would be a pain at best a disaster at worst." I agree with both parts of this statement. Something needs to be done to clarify the law (or at least the consequences of abusing it), and it will most likely have a negative impact on legit SD teams, unfortunately. The reason is that some businesses are becoming overwhelmed with fakers and the bad experiences that have happened as a result. (This is a regional issue in particular. Some places do not experience this in such high numbers) They are afraid of being sued so they let it all go, so they don't have to continually act as gatekeepers policing the ADA laws, and they shouldn't have to be. Especially small business owners who are having a tough enough time as it is. It's easy to fake an SD because so little is required. The more fakers a person sees, the more tempting it becomes to just go ahead and do it, too. So the numbers go up rapidly in affected areas. In many places, the local law enforcement doesn't know enough about the ADA to be much help, either. There's going to be a tipping point, some major event that is negative and garners headlines about how 'unworkable' this piece of legislation is...what of all these doctors handing out 'prescriptions'? Most of them don't really have a grasp on the difference between an ESA and an SD. Maybe when the 'purse dog' craze ends this will die a natural death...but it certainly is a problem in the meantime. There is so little enforcement and prosecution of fakers that no one seems to be worried about suffering any real legal consequences. There are 'service' boa constrictors in Walmarts for cryin out loud...It's a quandary and there's no easy solution.

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Voltaire SD

Did somebody say- deer??

Barked: Mon May 14, '12 2:47pm PST


	I was interviewed for a piece on fake service dogs, I said that he guy had been attacked by fake SDs and before i could finish my sentence she asked "how did you know they were fake?" I ended up saying that the dog(s) aggressively attacked mine unprovoked and NO service dog should EVER do that.

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