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Unconventional Service Animals

The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.

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Member Since
02/14/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 2:33pm PST 
I realize this is "dogster" but please bear with me because I cannot find a site that advocates for those of us who use unconventional service animals. I have rabbits who work as service animals for me. Their function is to sense panic attacks and help me through them. I have not been able to find one instance where a rabbit has killed a person. However dogs kill about 30 people every year. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_Unite d_States) And yet the DOJ has decided that we have no rights to a service animal unless it is a dog or horse. In my state, the state law still protects any species, not just dogs. However the DOJ ruling has made some businesses brave and the only way I can secure my rights is with an attorney which I cannot afford.

I do not want to try to train a dog to be a service animal and I could not afford to buy a trained dog. While dogs have their advocates, rabbits have a number of characteristics that make them more suitable in certain situations.

Any thoughts on this? Does anyone know of a site friendly to us or can give those of us who use unconventional service animals some idea how to get the DOJ ruling overturned?
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Lacey

Future Service- Dog		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 2:56pm PST 
Unless the animal is specifically TRAINED to discern a problem, and then perform a corresponding task to mitigate that situation, the animal is NOT a service animal. Having an animal, even rabbits, who "help you through" anxiety doesn't count.

I could say the same thing about my cat, and it's true-- He is very calming when I curl up next to him and pet him, or when he sits in my lap, purring. But Phoenix is in no way a service animal, because he is not trained to perform a task to mitigate my disability.

-D
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Member Since
02/14/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 3:45pm PST 
You cannot "train" an animal to recognize seizures, panic attacks etc. They either recognize them or they don't. I was approached by policemen today who demanded a permit. I was peacefully demonstrating alone in front of the building that denied me access. Frankly I had no idea that a person had to obtain a permit to exercise his first amendment rights to free speech. I've read up on this and permits are needed for crowd control. But controlling a single person, holding a sign while he reads a book?

Anyways, their demands and demeanor threw me into one of the most sever panic attacks I've had in quite some time. I lost it as my condition worsened then I screamed at them to leave me alone. I went off with the rabbit who recognized my situation and began helping me.

I don't mean to be negative but you weren't there, you have no concept of what the rabbit does and if he is or is not a service animal. Does your cat stop your panic attacks? Does he mitigate the attacks? I believe that's the difference between a "pet" and a "service animal."

The police wanted to know if the rabbit could "fetch, roll over, etc." I told them he is a rabbit, not a dog and a "dog standard" does not apply. My rabbit has a task that he was trained to do. To help me when I have one of my debilitating panic attacks.

The guidelines here ask people not to be judgmental. I am seeking help, not judgment. Maybe I'm not welcome here. If anyone has any constructive ideas where I can go to seek help, I'm interested.

Edited by author Tue Feb 14, '12 3:46pm PST

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Beth

Hey! I hear- people landing- on the Moon!		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 4:00pm PST 
Then what, exactly, does your rabbit do to mitigate your disability?
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Beth

Hey! I hear- people landing- on the Moon!		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 4:22pm PST 
Gypsy does not claim that her cat is in any way trained to be a service animal. In fact, her description of what her cat does would put it more in line with being an emotional support animal, which is not the same as a service animal.

She has her service dog to be a service animal, not her cat.
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Lacey

Future Service- Dog		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 4:36pm PST 
You cannot "train" an animal to recognize seizures, panic attacks etc. They either recognize them or they don't....

...My rabbit has a task that he was trained to do. To help me when I have one of my debilitating panic attacks.

First you state that the animal cannot be trained to recognize impending panic attacks, which is something that I happen to agree with. Then you state that he IS trained. You contradict yourself, there.

I went off with the rabbit who recognized my situation and began helping me...

...My rabbit has a task that he was trained to do. To help me when I have one of my debilitating panic attacks.

Just the rabbit's "existence", even if it helps you, is not a task in any way whatsoever. He has to actually be trained to RESPOND by performing a task in the face of your panic attack. My cat "helps" me feel better when I'm having severe anxiety, but he is NOT a service animal because he is not trained to do anything.

Does your cat stop your panic attacks? Does he mitigate the attacks? I believe that's the difference between a "pet" and a "service animal."

No, my cat does not. He has a positive effect on my depression, mainly. I find him very entertaining, and he makes me smile. But again, me enjoying his existence does not make him a Service Cat.

-D
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U

I miss you, U		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 5:17pm PST 
You cannot "train" an animal to recognize seizures, panic attacks etc.

This is true of seizures but not true of panic attacks. (I saw some nice video just this morning of a dog who is learning to alert to anxiety.)

Anyways, their demands and demeanor threw me into one of the most I lost it as my condition worsened then I screamed at them to leave me alone. I went off with the rabbit who recognized my situation and began helping me.

How? You keep saying he does this, he does that, he's trained - but never provide any specifics. (By the way, I've had several house rabbits myself, and am VERY fond of them as pets; I don't, however, consider them terribly trainable.)

Does your cat stop your panic attacks? Does he mitigate the attacks? I believe that's the difference between a "pet" and a "service animal."

Sorry, that's not even close to the definition of a "service animal".

The police wanted to know if the rabbit could "fetch, roll over, etc." I told them he is a rabbit, not a dog and a "dog standard" does not apply.

Absolutely it does, at least in terms of the ADA. The police officer actually sounds far more knowledgable than most.

My rabbit has a task that he was trained to do. To help me when I have one of my debilitating panic attacks.

Again - just what does he do? Not his effects on you. If a neutral third party was watching him while you have a panic attack, what would that person see?

The guidelines here ask people not to be judgmental. I am seeking help, not judgment. Maybe I'm not welcome here. If anyone has any constructive ideas where I can go to seek help, I'm interested.

I'm not so sure I'd call this topic so far "judgmental" as it is acknowledging the reality that regardless of whether or not rabbits are allowed to be service animals, there's no point in pursuing the matter unless they are able to fit the definition in all other ways. I know rabbits well and I find it hard to imagine. So none of this is meant personally towards you, I think you're just going to find what you're trying to do is a tough sell, that's all.

Anyway, try here:

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII_2010/titleIII_2010_reg ulations.htm

That contains the DOJ's rationale for removing species other than dogs from the ADA. In order to get them to change the ADA, you would most likely have to make the case that rabbits (in general, not just yours) can fit the definition of service animal. This document also contains the correct definition of "service animal". (Please note the "individually trained" requirement.)
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Mario

Its-ah Supah- Marrrio Time!		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 7:51pm PST 
I agree with the OP. wave

"Individuals with disabilities who use trained guide or service dogs are concerned that if untrained or unusual animals are termed ‘‘service animals,’’ their own right to use guide or service dogs may become unnecessarily restricted or questioned." - From the link posted just above me, reasoning why other species should be removed from the service animal definition.

Isn't it sad, that a group of disabled persons could think of no other way to keep their own rights protected, than to restrict the rights of another group of disabled persons? What about educating businesses about the LAW?

Species other than dogs are trainable, using the right methods. You can train a fish to do many things using clicker training, for example. Other animals are just as teachable as dogs, they just usually require more patience. I do not know much about rabbits, but I have friends who have them, and are involved in the rabbit world, and I can say they express very much the same ideas and ideals about their choice of companions that we dog lovers do. Who are we to judge? The way the OP is describing the situation, their rabbit could very well be trained (or naturally) to respond and mitigate a panic attack. Mario is being trained to paw my leg to snap me out of dissociative episodes, and licks my face during an episode or panic attack and it stops it within moments. Is that not mitigating my disability? None of us were there besides the OP (and I hope they are still here, despite the hostility, even if it may not have been meant).

If the OP is still here, I hope they know they are definitely lucky to be in a state that did not restrict their rights like the ADA did! Since your state gives you a higher level of protection (someone correct me if I'm wrong), it is the law that applies in that state. It sounds like that police officer was uneducated (imagine that). Having rights in your state means that police officers are THE ones you are supposed to be able to call during an access challenge, because they can enforce the law. If I were you, I would send a letter, detailing what happened, along with your state's definition of service animal and where they are allowed. You can also make little cards with the law on them to keep on you and educate whoever might need it.
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Happy

The Boy Wonder		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 8:01pm PST 
There was a lot of thought put into the new revision of the ADA, as well as a lot of controversy on both sides. I don't see much of a chance of change in this direction again.

That said to address some of your comments.

As for 'dogs' being trained to recognize, alert and respond to panic attacks... yes it is a Trained response. The ADA requires a dog to recognize and respond to your condition. Just being there isn't enough, I can understand where you're coming from here. But the law is the law, and protesting in front of a store isn't going to get you anywhere... it's not their fault that they deny you, because they too must follow the law.
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Member Since
02/14/2012		 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 14, '12 8:02pm PST 
I apologize to Gypsy for being snappy about her cat. I can only say that I had a rough day.

You ask, "What does he do?"
I have avoided answering this because I feel it's personal and to me it is embarrassing. He bathes my neck and face with kisses (licking) which distracts me from the panic attack and brings me back. When I feel a panic attack coming on or am having one, I pick him up. He takes over from there and gives the affection that helps me. If I just pick him up and I'm not having an attack, he doesn't lick me. Instead he calmly sits in my lap. As you might imagine, in my embarrassment I get away from people. Hide, sort of.

I do see and have read that the line between an emotional support animal and a service animal is actually very ambiguous. I believe he is on the Service Animal side of the line.

My panic attacks are VERY severe. They leave me totally unable to function. I sweat, shake, sometimes scream at people. I totally lose control. I screamed at the police today and demanded that they leave me alone. I could well have been arrested and my rabbit euthanized. They were threatening to jail me and take the rabbit to a shelter which is famous for killing their animals. That is really what set me over the edge. My rabbit is very important to me. I simply cannot risk being in public and not be able to have my rabbit with me to help me.

So far no place except the Museum has refused me admission. I have been in hundreds of places with my rabbit and I was always accepted. I like going to the Museum but if I am going to be forced to give that up then I suppose I had better realize that people like me simply are not going to be allowed in some places any more.
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