Tips, Tricks, & Cesar Millan

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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!

Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 3:39am PST


	I know a lot of people have different opinions about Cesar Millan and his techniques, and it is not my intent to begin a debate about it. I ran into one of the btter-known trainers in the area and was talking to her about a tricks class she has. I thought it would be fun to take the class and said as much to her. She offered to let me attend it for free (after a $20 initial consult fee since I've never used her before) since Spike's an SD. So, I've been looking forward to this class very much. Earlier today, I came across an ad that was posted by her. It stated that she uses Cesar's training methods. Now, I am of the opinion that they work for some but not all dogs. I believe each dog is an individual and needs to be trained with the methods that work best for him/her. If those happen to be Cesar's, then so be it. The thing is that I am wary of using methods like those on Spike. I've never tried them before, and I have no idea how he would react. Also, I vaguely recall reading on the forum here that Cesar's methods are bad for SD training. Of course, I was under the impression that Cesar's methods were for "problem" dogs, and so I could be misunderstanding that ad as being directed towards those. When I spoke to her, she mentioned positive training techniques. What does everyone think? Would there be harm in taking Spike to this tricks class?

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Kaylee

Wag more, bark- less!

Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 4:43am PST


	I don't think it would hurt to check it out- although I wouldn't hand Spike overto her as a demo dog unless you've watched her demo the exact same exercise before! I am NOT a Cesar Milan fan. I think he's got incredible timing and a phenomenal ability to market himself. But I don' t think that his 'techniques' work well for most dogs or most dog owners, even though I do like his message about exercise and structure. All that said, he's the household name of the moment. A lot of trainers are capitalizing on the 'dog whispering' image to advertise their classes. (I have a line about 'being the leader of the pack' in my own ad copy, even though I DO teach mostly clicker classes (with some lure-reward, and I'm not 100% positive when it comes to proofing)- we talk about NILIF and setting boundaries in my puppy and basic classes, and I like to present the alternative that you can be a good leader WITHOUT having to be physically pushy to your dog.) Check it out and give her a chance, if you like her otherwise.

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Gracie

Service with a- Smile! : )

Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 9:12am PST


	Just because someone used Cesars methods doesn't mean that they are going to pin your dog to the ground. That is only for really severe cases. I like Cesars methods and use them myself as do most good trainers without even realizing it: Try to be calm-no yelling. Realize that your dog can read your body language and knows how you feel Don't put your baggage on your dog. Give your dog leadership by setting easy to follow rules and enforceing them. Give your dog appropriate attention and exercise.

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Torie

If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it!

Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 5:24pm PST


	Well CM may have his good points, though I don't tend to agree with him mostly, but I still dont' see this as a way to teach tricks! Get a book on teaching tricks. Clicker training is fun for teaching tricks. You want a fun environment for tricks, I would think. --des

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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!

Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 12:03am PST


	Cait & Gracie, thank you for your thoughts. I guess my wariness has something to do with the other trainer around that uses Caser's methods (or claims to, rather) was just arrested for cruelty. I always thought that his more extreme methods were for problems dogs, but I didn't want to rush in and take the class if it was someting that would be detrimental to Spike. Like I said, I thought I had read somewhere on the forum here that someone thought Cesar's methods were bad for SDs. But maybe I dreamed that, or it was in a completely different context... Torie, I can't do clicker training. I think it is a wonderful tool and I completely understand the mechanism behind it, but I personally cannot do it. As for just getting a book, I often need someone to show me how to do it. Plus, the class is free, and if I like this trainer, I might use her for some other work.

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Torie

If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it!

Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 4:24pm PST


	A clicker is just a tool. You just need some marker. The marker can be a whistle or even a verbal and enthusiastic "yes". You 'charge" the marker by saying "yes!" or using a whistle or clicker about 20-30 times by using the marker then treating with a small but delictable treat, and go from there. The need to show you is another story though. But I don't think CM's techniques are appropriate to learning tricks. You need some patient teacher who uses positive means. The dog is supposed to have fun with this. --des

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Maizie Moo

Kisses anyone?

Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 10:38pm PST


	I don't find that Cesar's methods are absolutely harsh... it depends on the situation and the dog. I've used a number of his "tricks" with my Dachshunds with tremendous success. The key is calm assertiveness, and that can mean different things to different people. Some trainers misues Cesar's methods, change them around to fit their own way of thinking, but still call it "Cesar Milan" techniques. I've never been one to use treats, clickers, or whatever. I use praise for correct responses, that's it. Dogs learn through repetition, so consistancy and lots of patience is key. I keep training sessions brief, fun, interesting and upbeat, and try not to let myself get frustrated when they don't "get it" as quick as I'd like them to. lol. Dachshunds are pretty pigheaded, so patience is a must. lol.

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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!

Barked: Sun Jul 5, '09 11:33pm PST


	Torie, I know how to do clicker training and I know how it works. I do use a marker with Spike. I was saying that I can't use the actual clicker. Mazie, I don't like relying on treats either. I try to just use praise, but that unfortunately doesn't always work with Spike. I've found that beginning with "lottery" treats and then having an occassional treat reinforcement session works best with him. I'm hoping the next one Iget won't need that technique, but knowing my luck, s/he'll be really treat motivated...

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Torie

If you can roll- in the dirt, do- it!

Barked: Mon Jul 6, '09 1:16pm PST


	I think there is merit to a lot of things CM does, though the "calm assertive" thing is more of an attitude, and is not so unique to him anyway. He has a lovely presence to him I think. But translated to others might not be so effective. He does use some questionable techniques, imo, such as flooding (that is forcing a dog to be a situation evoking fear) and alpha rolls (which I have noticed he uses less now). I don't see how the techniques themselves would be useful for tricks. But the attitude perhaps. Though I find a little enthusiasm to go a long way to getting her to do really well at tricks. She seems to like to show off. I see nothing wrong with food as reinforcers, but you can use praise, petting, toys, whatever you want. The actual clicker is totally just a tool. Even Karen Pryor, clicker trainer moma, wishes it weren't called "clicker trainer". In her book she says it got that name from an online group. The only thing is that in operant techniques, the reinforcer really has to reinforce (i.e. strengthen) the behavior. If good dog does it, well that wouldn't cut it for Torie, but it will for some dogs. Otoh, a squeak toy would work as well as food. --des

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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!

Barked: Tue Jul 7, '09 2:07am PST


	I say I'd rather not use treats because I've had a hard time breaking away from having to use them. I know it can be done; I've just had a hard time doing it. I'm sure part of the problem is Spike's condition, though, which makes him realy funny about food and eating -- sometimes he won't eat for a while (out of his food dish), so I have to hand feed him before he'll work. During that time, I like to work on various things. This also means that on days I have to rush out the door for something and Spike hasn't eaten already that I have to feed him while we're out at some point. And of course I don't carry treats/food on me... Not for any reason other than I forget, though. I've tried leaving them in the car but then he won't eat them; he just spits it back out. Like I said, he's weird about food. He also doesn't like the whole toys as rewards thing. He doesn't really get excited about toys at all. I'm just hoping the new dog will be easier to work with. Toy motivated would be really great; as I said, I have difficulties weaning them off the treat reward. But my SD trainer (not the same woman as the tricks class) is really good with it. She's going to let me take Spike through her SD class to see if she can help me out with some of his quirks.

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Tips, Tricks, & Cesar Millan