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The Service and Therapy Dog forum is for all service and therapy dogs regardless of whether or not their status is legally defined by federal or state law, how they are trained, or whether or not they are "certified." Posts questioning or disputing a person's need for a service or therapy dog, the validity of a person's service or therapy dog, or the dog's ability to do the work of a service or therapy dog are not permitted in this forum. Please keep discussions fun, friendly, and helpful at all times.


Certification

   
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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!		 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 12:24am PST 
Let me begin by saying that there have been a number of posts about this recently, and it has sparked my curiosity. This is an entirely hypothetical thing I'm talking about here, and in the hypotheticalness, this paticular thing is not financially burdensome, is available to everyone, and is legitimate.

This program, called HypoCert, just became available. There are several options available. The first one is a registry, plain and simple. All is does is take you at your word that your dog (animal) is an SD or SDiT, gives your a registration number, and files it away if you ever need it.

The second option is a more complete registration. It will provide the same as listed above, as well as documentation for your dog. What I mean by this is paw/nose prints (like fingerprinting), a detailed description, chip # (only if your dog is already chipped), and a photo reference. The only thing that would be issued to you is a picture ID that does not say "service dog" but has all the above information.

The third option is certification. his includes everything listed above. The ID will say "service dog" in addition to everything else. Somewhere on the ID have the ADA laws stating they don't have to be certified/ID'd. Equipment is also provided -- vest/harness, patches, and emergency info card. There is also support when needed for access challenges. To get certified, you must go to an approved trainer to have the test administered. Paperwork would be filled out by your health care provider or you would be evaluated to determine if you need an SD. On the chance that you live in a rural area where no trainers are available, you would be able to send in a tape featuring your dog and yourself working in various settings, as well as notorized paperwork that you are who you say you are and the dog in the video is the dog you are getting certified. The testing itself would hold to the rigorous standards that SDs should be held to.

So, once again, HypoCert is available to everyone and recognized by everyone. This is something akin the theoretical national program that some people want to have. And I know this type of program isn't likely to be around anytime soon, but if it were:

1) How much would you pay for each individual type of service?

2) For the second type of registration, would you pay more if included in it were a life-time subscription that would provide assistance in finding your dog is s/he were to get lost or stolen? Would you instead be willing to pay a yearly subscription for these services?

3) Should recertification be mandatory? If so, how often? Should it be included in the initial cost or should you have to pay for every recert at a reduced price?

4) Would you be willing to pay a "club" fee for receiving recert and new equipment whenever you need it?

5) If something like this were actually available, would you use it?

Edited by author Thu Jul 2, '09 2:04am PST

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Barkley- Orville- Fuzzy Butt

Professtional of- the SSCs!
 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 1:43am PST 
O__o...........................................................Well this is a can of worms. laugh out loud

1) I would pay nothing for the first one as you need more then someone word to prove (not leagely but if I was giveing out registration I would want proof). that your dog is a SD.

2) I think this service should be for all dogs, and not a registration for SDs. It would be of great peice of mind to have your dogs info so if s/he were ever to get lost or stolen it would be proof that your dog is yours. (I have done this already with Barkley's microchip comany). I paid a one time fee of $20 for this and it lasts all of Barkley's life, and I think that is a good price for it.

3) Recirtification. Absolutly! I think the dog should be re-tested once a year at the least. Every 6 months would be better. I think that maybe a small fee for every testing would be fine, but it should be alot smaller then the first fee when you get everything. And if you choose not to retest your dog at least once a year, it expires and is no longer worth anything.

4) I prefer to buy my own gear, so I wouldn't want to be limited in one typer of gear that this place offers, and the "club fee" will probably end up being much more then the acuall gear (unless you are getting a very expensive harness). So no I would not pay that.


5) I *think* that there are a couple of places that do this. And if I did decide to do it, the price and quality of what I would get in the end makes all the differnce. If there was some government reconized place that did it for pretty cheep, I might. But right now I prefer my own perfessional trainer to give the PAT to Barkley.

Edited by author Thu Jul 2, '09 1:46am PST

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Barkley- Orville- Fuzzy Butt

Professtional of- the SSCs!
 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 2:10am PST 
I noticed this and now I can't edit.

1) I would pay nothing for the first one for reason stated above. For the second I think $20-$50 is resaonable, and it should last the life of the dog. For the thrid one. *thinking* Well there is the price of the trainer, vest, and all that stuff................................... (I am a cheep wad) I think I'd pay $200 at the most, But ONLY if it was reconized by the government as a place to cirtify your dog.
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Kaylee

Wag more, bark- less!		 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 5:26am PST 
I don't think the first or second are really worth anything at all. The third I think has some good points, but I *do* have a couple minor quibbles with specifics (the video evaluation, the harness provision, etc). And I think that ANY certification program that's going to be meaningful needs to observeand work with the dog for a period of time- not just a PAT and then once ayear after that. (Any dog could have the day of their life, pass a PAT, and still not be safe in public; conversely, a dog could have a horrible day, flunk the PAT, and still be a safe and osund working dog.) ADI requires 160 hours of documented training for a reason. I don't think it should include a harness, though, or if so, that should be an additional expense- too many variables to say one-size-fits-all pricing when gear varies so widely in cost.

Moneywise? I think $500ish is actually about right for that (it came out a bit over when I added it up a few months ago for DSAD*) if it includes the yearly recert and everything else. The administrative costs (figuring that SOMEONE has got to be manning that phone at all times, replacement patches/paperwork/etc, all that) and pre-PAT training are all pretty demanding, cost-wise and time-wise, and it's skilled labor, not unskilled. I know it takes me about 4 hours to get all the paperwork done, including checking a person's medical /disability references (that's actually frequently the most time consuming issue!), the PAT is almost 2 hours, and the ridiculous amount of paperwork is really daunting. I think if the payment is broken up into sections (hourly for pre-PAT training or training log monitoring; hourly for the PAT itself; administrative fee each year & hourly training fee for the re-cert, patches and ID at cost- it'd be the same or a little more, just spread out over more time.

I think the main benefit to the user is in the event of a lawsuit, but also just less hassle, period- having a dog certified SHOULDN'T make things easier because t's not required by law, but regarldess of that, it does- public perception is that certified is better.


Cait
*DSAD offers OT Certs, for those who don't know, which is why I'm so opininated about this party- we've done a LOT to make sure we're providing a meaningful document to folks and the very best assurance possible that their dog WILL hold up in court.
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Harley, SD,- CGC, TDI

Super Service- Boy!!
 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 9:59am PST 
Would I use it? Probably not.

First, I don't think a video tape is a good way to evaluate a SD. Have you ever heard of creative editing? That, in and of itself, makes it less creditable in my book.

Second reason I wouldn't use it is cost. It would, undoubtedly, be expensive and probably rightfully so, but I can't afford it. With medical bills of my own plus daily life combined with being a teacher (low paying job in this economy), I simply don't have the money to do so. I spare no expense when it comes to the necessities....food, medical care, etc... but a certification like this is not necessary...so it would be like throwing money I don't have away.
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Roanna

Guidework is a- beautiful thing		 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 11:00am PST 
1. Wouldnt pay one red (or any other color) cent. Not required by law.
2. Same as above.
3. Since "certification" is not required by law, then "re-certification" is a moot point.
4. Why all the talk about paying anything? The law already states "No Certification", so why all the "pay for certification/recertification" gobbledy-gook?
5. Absolutely not. Not needed or required. I have better things for my money.
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Kaylee

Wag more, bark- less!		 
 
Barked: Thu Jul 2, '09 5:27pm PST 
The way I see it - no, it's not required. But it sure does make some folks feel better, it decreases people's fear of conflict, and it helps owner trainers get all their paper in order. (Ours started out as "Owner trainer assistance program" and people went "Why aren't you including certification in that?" and we went "Well, okay.")
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Spike

Don't Berate,- Educate!		 
 
Barked: Fri Jul 3, '09 11:58pm PST 
There needs to be a "sticking your tongue out" icon... The reason I was asking about this is because there have been several discussion about certification lately, about whether people think there should be a national cert requirement, or even just using a private one to help with access challenges. I guess my question was just if there was one that provided tangible help if you would use it or how much would you think it would be worth. Part of my thinking was that if there is going to be a national requirement (which I agree it won't happen for a long time, if at all), then there needs to be some system that alleviates the potential problems of location and money.

Cait, your estimate is about what I was thinking that type of service would cost.

Harley, if there were no money issue involved, would it be something you would use? I didn't think about the editing thing; what would you recommend? Or do you think it would be just impossible to have a reasonably accessible certification program?
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Roanna

Guidework is a- beautiful thing		 
 
Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 6:48am PST 
Right now, there isnt even real objectivity when it comes to something as simple as CGC testing, so a" SD test" would be neary impossible. The logistics of trying to "test" or "certify" the myriad of mitigating tasks for the staggering number of qualifying disabilities out there is almost incomprehensible.

Carrying a card with the access laws on it is a great idea------GDB issues such cards to all graduates; in fact, the laws are easily accessible on the net and one can print up their own cards to present when challenged. Just flash the LAW card and walk on by-----which is your guaranteed right under the ADA----no "certification ID card" needed.

Look, I am not trying to be confrontational, rude, or rattle anyones cages, but------if a person does not have the courage, knowledge, and fortitude to stand on what the law ALREADY says about access with their service dog-----------------then that person should seriously reconsider whether or not they should be using a service dog in public to begin with.

The entire concept of having to "register" and carry an "ID" for a piece of durable medical equipment (which is exactly what a service dog is), or of someone flashing some phoney-baloney "ID" to make access "easier" honestly offends me. Access challenges are part of the game. Deal with it. If someone doesnt have the courage to follow the laws that are already legally in place to protect ALL service dog users-------they need to leave their dog at home and stop making things more difficult for everyone else that correctly follows procedure. Thats the long and the short of it--------do it right or dont do it at all.

Now, some may wish to flame me and/or report me for making an "offensive" posting-------but it wont change the truth about what has been said. If they cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Edited by author Sun Jul 5, '09 8:15pm PST

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Harley, SD,- CGC, TDI

Super Service- Boy!!
 
 
Barked: Sat Jul 4, '09 9:00am PST 
EXACTLY Roana! I couldn't have said it better myself.

There is a reason why certification isn't required. I don't know how these laws came into place, but it stands to reason that when they were being discussed, the question of whether to require certification came up. To have a truly valid certification process would be so cumbersome and overcomplicated that it would place service dogs out of reach for the average disabled person. Add to that, our dogs are dogs, not robots. You can't just input program and then expect the exact same and perfect replay every single time. Even the best trained, most certified, perfect example of a service dog WILL have off days. They WILL mess up and have problems at some point. They are living beings and for lack of a better term are "only human". When they do mess up, there will undoubtedly be someone to witness and shake their head (with my luck, a lot of somebodies). I guess what I'm trying to say is that certification doesn't guarantee anything.

The best way we can help guarantee our rights is by helping educate and supporting businesses in removing those that need to be removed, whether they be fakers or poorly trained.
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