War between BARF and Prey Model -- getting exhausting!

This is a dedicated place for all of your questions and answers about Raw Diets. There are also some really cool groups like "Raw Fed" on the topic you can join. This forum is for people who already know they like the raw diet or sincerely want to learn more. Please remember that you are receiving advice from peers and not professionals. If you have specific health-related questions about your dog's diet, please contact your vet!

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the chi-weenie
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 3:59pm PST 
yeah we lean towards prey model here, but this is a good forum, I don't ever see anyone blow up at others about their choices.

I was quick to choose prey model vs BARF when I first started. not only is it simpler, but BARF did not seem far enough away from kibble as I wanted. BARF seemed to be about basically making homemade dog food with just the same ingredients as kibble.... too much bone, too much supplementing, too much preparing, too much cooking, too much fiber and carbs, and if I wanted to feed that too my dog, I'd just buy a good quality kibble. But I'm very minimalist and I love feeding prey model. it is so simple and everything serves a purpose and there is less waste and it is just basic and natural and it is based on what the wolf eats and has eaten forever. and dogs and wolves are the same anatomy (eg: they can breed fertile offspring). So I thought that wolves living off prey is good enough proof that it is very suitable for a dog.
I don't know what the BARF guys base their diet on.

Cookie gets veggies as treats. recently she discovered she LOVES broccoli

Will Work For- Food
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 4:54pm PST 
I am a member of a couple raw feeding / natural type groups. I read the opinions of others but rarely respond or comment - I find people can get way too judgemental. I feed what works best for me and my dogs and that is never exactly the same as others feed their own dogs. I have some great "real life" mentors, including Bosley's breeder who has been feeding her Berners raw for nearly 20 years. It is these people that I actually know and trust that I take the most advise from. I do not fall 100% into either the BARF or the Prey Model camps, rather I take a more "middle of the road" approach and it has worked for us wink

Do you even- lift?
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 5:43pm PST 
This forum does tend to be more friendly and open to differing opinions than many I've seen. I use more supplements than most PMR feeders, but to me the ability to customize the diet to your wants/needs is one of the great things about it.

I also agree with Max that sometimes people's recipes aren't very healthy, at least for the majority of dogs. A lot of BARF diets I've seen are really, really heavy on bone and/or veggies and grains, and some attempts at PMR are nothing but chicken. Certainly being rude about it isn't the way to help, but I do think for the sake of the dog that it's good to politely speak up if there's a glaring problem with the diet someone is feeding. It took me a while to figure out all the things I could have been doing better, and some friendly advice from experienced feeders would have been welcome.

Edited by author Mon Nov 26, '12 5:49pm PST



"Stubborn" dogs- don't need- corrections
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 6:30pm PST 
Back when I first starting learning about nutrition, I had my head up my behind and felt like I knew all. I did a lot more harm than good when I tried to "educate" people. I have a major issue with being opinionated and coming off as harsh or hateful, even when I in no way mean to be.

But as I get older and more mature, I learn that people have differing views. And you can't bully someone into your way of thinking. It's wrong and very immature.

I think I also know which groups you're talking about. And yes, people who feed raw *can* be extremely harsh and/or rude.

Personally, I feed PMR. It's what I feel is best for *Lobo*. My grandparents feed Poppy a high-quality kibble; that's what they feel is best for *Poppy*(and even if I disagree, he isn't my dog). My grandmother still gives Poppy a chicken leg every now and then, and sometimes, Poppy will even eat pork shoulders, beef liver, and chicken gizzards. Poppy is very healthy, as well. (: Honestly, I'm not even sure I could say he would be healthier on PMR. I'm not sure there'd be much of a difference - mostly because my grandma feeds him raw anyway, and the only time he gets kibble is if my grandpa happens to be in the room. shh laugh out loud Heck, half the time, Poppy won't even eat his kibble unless he's pretty much starving.

I've met dogs, however, whose systems were so messed up, a plant-based kibble was what was best for them. The owner had tried PMR, BARF, and meat-based kibbles, and they all made her dog ill. I suspect the dog came from a backyard breeder; perhaps a lot of inbreeding and general feeding of horrible-quality food for generations led to that? Stranger things, right? shrug

All I know is, dogs are different. Our own financial statuses are different. Sometimes I wonder if Lobo would be better on a high-quality kibble because we don't always have the funds to a) Make sure he even gets enough to eat daily, and b) Make sure everything is balanced. But I think about how let down he'd be, and I worry that he might begin starving himself like Poppy has done before.

Besides, as strange as it might sound, PMR has actually *helped* Lobo's resource guarding around other dogs. (Maybe it seems like so much more when it's on the porch than when it's in a bowl?)

Spooky Mulder
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 6:36pm PST 
I am similar to Onyx, I supplement way more than most people here probably do, but that's ok. Never been given a negative vibe from anyone if I mentioned adding other stuff, and honestly Dogster's raw forum is probably one of its most laid back.

A lot in diet is personal interpretation. There are times when you are doing something WRONG, and that needs to be brought up, but adding veggies or adding an extra Vit C supplement or whatever else, at the end of the day, just isn't that big of a deal. So long as the basics are there, and your dogs are thriving, then there isn't much harm in venturing out and trying different things.

For example, I recently started organic coconut oil with mine. I've been trying to cut back some of the dosing on the G/C, and supposedly the coconut oil can be good with joint health/mobility. I do it mostly for maintenance, so who knows if its helping or not, but its not hurting anything so... why not?

I don't consider how I feed "BARF"... my core physiology is PMR in terms of numbers, but I do add veggies semi-regularly. Not because I feel they are 100% required for my dog's survival, but because I feel there are certain ones that have good things to offer. I feed things like kale, bok choy, and other high-C veggies as a supplement. Again... who knows if its helping, but considering the amounts I feed (MAYBE 5% total diet), its not hurting anything.

I want to play!
Barked: Mon Nov 26, '12 10:13pm PST 
I'm not fond of groups that say PMR is only way or BARF is only way.. OR You feed the dog kibble even for training treat that is Bad.. :

I feed Saya mainly prey model and she does get supplements for joints and she gets coconut oil which she loves.

All her organs except chicken gizzards come from grass fed/free ranged sources which I'm sure is good for her nutritionally.. Some of her meat is grass fed like her lamb ribs or ground ewe. So I think that adds some nutrients so no need for fish oil..

She also gets raw smelt, mackerel or saury also caned sardines, salmon and mackerel.

I don't feed veggies because she acts like they're poisoned and I don't think it's needed plus I'd have to hide it in ground meat in order for her to eat it everyday..

Once in a while she will get a grilled carrot, zucchini or Brussels sprout sometimes she'll get a steamed broccoli, but most times she refuses them.

She does enjoy some fruit as a snack since it tastes sweet, but she doesn't get it every day, but I see it as a snack or a treat not part of her diet.

I'm not against feeding a dog veggies or fruit with a raw diet as long as the raw part is good and balanced too.

Bella my mom's boxer loves apples she would heel for a bit of one. lol

Coarse be sure any fruit or veggie is ok for a dog and some seeds aren't good for dogs.

I sometimes cook and grind veggies like yellow squash, zucchini, carrots and broccoli I'd then cook boneless meat, organs and then grind the meat and organs and mix with the veggies and some caned fish, egg use it as part of a recipe to make dog treats..

I don't think the veggies are needed as I've made the treats with just the meat.. The extra stuff makes a bigger batch so it means more treats to work on training recall.

Herpaderp-apotam- us
Barked: Tue Nov 27, '12 6:46am PST 
I am a member of a couple raw feeding groups and I'm honestly on the verge of leaving both of them because some of these people are just so adamant and in-your-face that it's extremely off putting. I've made the point in those forums before that they are just as off-putting with their "Any vax will kill your dog!" and "Throw away your premixed stuff and don't ever feed your dog a veggie snack!" as the vets who say that raw feeding will kill your dog. Extremists ruin everything. I've found this place to be much more accepting and, in general, gentler with criticism.
Jackson Tan

Lad about town
Barked: Tue Nov 27, '12 7:05am PST 
People who spend their time lurking raw groups, quivering on their haunches and waiting for some gauche soul to admit they minced up some spinach with their beef really need to get a life. I mean, really. It's embarrassing.

This is coming from a PMR feeder.
Ember FDX

Go Go Devil- Bunnies!
Barked: Tue Nov 27, '12 9:53am PST 
Food is just such a weird thing... There is so much stigma on so many levels! I eat healthy myself, so I'm stereotyped as a bland, stick in the mud. Sometimes I just let people assume I'm vegan - which happens all the time because I'm thin and work with animals - because then I'm stereotyped as health-conscious and compassionate instead. You can only hang out with me for so long before bacon enters the picture, though laugh out loud

I still cannot figure out why being vegan is an acceptable way to be health-conscious, but generally eating whole, unprocessed foods and politely declining to order from McDonalds is not, but apparently that's so. And man... Ever decline a piece of dyed sugar-slathered store bought "cake" at a party? You'd think you were actually evil.

The gist of this is that people have serious, deep issues with food and they get transferred straight to our dogs.

Extremism is an issue all it's own, and really is just dangerous. My MIL, for example, has H Pylori and ulcers and flat-out REFUSES to cook leafy green veggies because "cooking them will kill all the enzymes." She thinks they MUST be raw. So she continues to eat raw greens on a regular basis and spend the rest of the day doubled over in pain from the acid buildup, despite the very basic fact that cooking them lightly almost eliminates the acid content and damages few of the of the beneficial nutrients. That's extremism. That's why I completely avoid extremist forums.

When it comes down to it, when you're confident in your choices you don't need to act like an all-knowing jerk about them. Yeah, I feed veggies and fiber. 15 - 25%. I messed around with none to 50%, and my dogs definitely do best with around 20% fiber. I don't care what anyone else's dogs need, I researched it, conferred with people I trust, watched for results, and that's what I came to. Whatever. Asking advice from someone who's going to rip me a new one for that fact is just as bad as going to a vet who's going to blame every ailment my dog has on raw meat. It's just not worth it with so many better avenues to pursue.

Barked: Tue Nov 27, '12 5:39pm PST 
It's so funny I'm reading this because I don't frequent this forum, but I do some others, definitely more extreme ones. It's always bothered me to a degree, but I felt pretty passionate that RAW was the way to go. But then I read a book this weekend and it really changed the way I thought about things. I started learning more about just how different meat is from what ancestral dogs ate (factory-farmed/less nutritious/imbalance of fats to proteins) and went to a nutritional tracking site and put in what I had been feeding my pups the last couple days and saw there was more fat than protein and how my omega-3/omega-6 ration was off. So I started adding in these, like coconut oil with a meal low in fat but higher in protein since coconut oil is high in (good) fat. Or I would add chia seeds to a higher in fat, but lower in protein meal like chicken to balance out the ratio. So I have really come to learn when it comes to feeding our pets, there are a variety of paths and I'm not going to tune someone out because they use a certain item but rather learn why they use it and see if it can benefit my gang, and if it can't be happy they found something that works for them.
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