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This is a dedicated place for all of your questions and answers about Raw Diets. There are also some really cool groups like "Raw Fed" on the topic you can join. This forum is for people who already know they like the raw diet or sincerely want to learn more. Please remember that you are receiving advice from peers and not professionals. If you have specific health-related questions about your dog's diet, please contact your vet!
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Pepper
you say cookie?- now I listen. |
 | | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 9:13am PST | |  | |  | | personally I think this is Bravo! being a bit over dramatic. I think there are very good reasons why they had to recall, and I doubt, highly, that the FDA is going on a raw witch hunt. the following is something that the founder of SoCal-BARF wrote up after Bravo! started the recall, and it's VERY informative.
A letter from Bravo about its recent recall is circulating among the groups and message boards and I have written a response that is also beginning to circulate. I am sharing it with you:
In the summer of 2006 SoCal BARF received product from Bon Chien, a raw pet food manufacturer in Southern California, that was the subject of many complaints by our members. I acted on those complaints by taking two chubs of their product to a lab approved by the USDA to test meat and poultry products for the industry.
This experience gave me a wealth of information since E coli 0157 was found in the beef. I learned about the testing standards and the FDA, since food contamination is handled by the FDA, not the USDA.
As such, I’d like to respond to Melinda Miller’s note about the recent Bravo recall.
***** ALL raw meat carries pathogens. Whether you buy from the grocery store, from wholesale meat suppliers, or from prepared raw diet manufacturers.*****
This is true. That is why safe handling instructions are required on packaging. What is of concern is the type and quantity of bacteria present. That is why processing plants regularly test samples of their product. Many have technicians in their plants who are constantly testing. Others send out samples to labs. When a sample is sent out, the product must be held until the results come back.
*****It is impossible to avoid. The USDA allows poultry producers to have up to 23% Salmonella contamination on poultry. *****
Absolutely FALSE! This would be an impossible test result. The test simply tests negative or positive for salmonella. Any positive result is a FAIL and that chicken lot does not pass inspection.
*****A good portion of chickens are actually born with Salmonella. So the poultry products that manufacturers must use are contaminated long before it ever gets to us. Since these are RAW diets and we don't cook them, the bacteria is left intact. *****
WRONG again! Yes, salmonella may be present on a chicken just as E coli 0157 may be present in a cow; HOWEVER, neither pathogen is present in the food if the processor followed industry standards in the processing facility.
*****ANYONE who has fed raw has fed pathogens such as Salmonella and Listeria.*****
That is a false statement as noted before. Any chicken product that tests positive for salmonella is removed from the food chain.
*****If you go to our website you'll find a recall FAQ that gives citations about how Salmonella is a normal part of the intestinal flora and how dogs apparently neutralize the bacteria. There's even a quote from the FDA Consumer magazine that acknowledges that healthy dogs and cats rarely become ill from Salmonella.*****
Salmonella is present in the feather follicles of chickens. Something went terribly amiss in the processing facility when a pathogen present on the outside of a chicken was allowed to contaminate the meat. E Coli 0157 is in the intestinal tract of the cow. That is removed before the cow is allowed to enter the USDA facility for processing. If meat is found contaminated with E Coli 0157, you have a processing problem.
*****So why is the FDA involved and why did we do the recall? *****
The FDA, not the USDA, handles recalls.
*****You can find more information on that on our website also. But briefly you should know some of this:
The FDA agents told us that we are just the first of the raw diet companies to be visited, and that they hope to be able to shut down the raw diet industry and stop raw feeding. So this is an industry
problem, not a Bravo problem.*****
The raw pet food industry needs to test its products on a regular basis just as the processing plants do. Not every chicken is tested, so some will get by. That is where the pet food companies need to become proactive and protect the public from contaminants. Yes, the dog may be able to handle salmonella, but a human can become very ill. A young child that wants to hand feed a beloved pet may contaminate her hands and put those hands in her mouth. That is the issue. That is why the FDA is involved.
*****The FDA has a very black eye due to the melamine recalls. So, they want an easy win so they can prove they are safeguarding America's pets. Raw diets are an easy target for them.*****
The consumer wants honesty, not bashing the other guy. Bravo needs to issue a concern for the human public.
*****The FDA is holding raw diets to a cooked diet standard and has no desire to be reasonable and acknowledge that you can't hold RAW meat to the same regulation that governs cooked meat. *****
The American public can insist that raw food for pets is free of salmonella. Dry dog food and treats have been recalled because of salmonella. The standard is the same: NO SALMONELLA!
*****The FDA and USDA are currently in a bitter battle. The FDA is trying to take control of USDA operations. *****
Everyone is concerned about the safety of our food supply. The E Coli recently found in spinach and lettuce lets us know how vulnerable we are. The different responsibilities of the two departments are a problem. The USDA sets standards and when there is a need for a recall, the FDA steps in.
I see more in-fighting within the USDA than I see between the USDA and FDA.
*****We believe one of the reasons Bravo was chosen was that we are a USDA facility. By bashing Bravo they are able to bash the USDA. This recall is the result of politics and unreasonable bureaucrats.*****
Your focus is misdirected. The recall is the result of a contaminated product. What is Bravo going to do to protect its food supply?
*****Bravo raw products carry the same risk - and BENEFITS - as any raw product - whether home-prepared or manufactured.*****
The pet owner knows and accepts this idea.
*****We have been a company dedicated to high quality. That's why we use antibiotic-free poultry, and grass-fed, hormone-free red meats. It's why we manufacture in our own USDA plant under USDA human processing standards.*****
Please address the presence of pathogens that were present in your products. Using antibiotic-free poultry has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of salmonella. Grass-fed, hormone-free red meats are not an assurrance that they are free of E Coli 0157.
***** Other than the reality that all raw meat has some pathogen presence, nothing has changed.*****
Something needs to change!
***** You can still count on us to make a high quality and beneficial products.*****
Bravo does enjoy good standing in the pet community. You will ride out this recall but you also need to restore trust in your company by taking steps to prevent the presence of such pathogens as salmonella and listeria.
So that you can see what an analysis by a lab looks like, please see the results of the Bon Chien products tested;
They are at
members.aol.com:/socalbarf/bcbeef.pdf
members.aol.com:/soca lbarf/bcchicken.pdf
Unfortunately, I do not have the USDA standards uploaded, but you can see SoCal BARF’s discussion of these tests and the USDA standards on our Message Board: http://www.network54.com/Forum/216432/page-23
My response to Bravo is no reflection on the company itself. Having dealt with contaminated pet food and the FDA, I believe that raw food companies need to be more responsive to the possibilities of recalls and put in place practices that protect the public and our pets.
Pat Puckett
SoCal BARF |  |  | |  |
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Shankar
I just love. |
 | | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 10:24am PST | | | | | | I just called and talked to Bravo.
The hearing for Bravo is scheduled for November 27th. Let's all send them good thoughts and prayers.
Yes, they are one of the better raw pet food companies using organic and all natural ingredients.
We can check back around December 1st to see if they need any help from us. | | | | |
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Meridian
Proud to be a- kitchen wolf!!! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 11:18am PST | | | | | | Oh crap. I don't have the time to devote to one of my infamously long posts as I'd like to do, but I just wanted to chime in at this point in this thread and say I, too, think the statement from Bravo in the OP sounds a bit desperate and overly dramatic. I wouldn't be surprised if the comment about the FDA telling them that they had the intention of shutting down the raw food industry landed them in some hot water. Maybe a representative from the FDA uttered this sentiment to someone from Bravo, but I doubt very seriously that it's the FDA's official stance! Generalizing the account of what happened to them and pointing fingers at the FDA for being witch-hunters or whatever is actually making the Bravo people look crazy, which I don't like to see.
I work in a natural pet food store that carries over 10 different brands of pre-made raw foods, and I'm also the co-manager of a raw food buyer's group. This is the first I've heard of government or independent agency actively trying to create problems for any raw-food interest, then again, I'm in Canada.
Regardless, I guess there's no time like the present to consider learning about how to take a raw diet into your own hands! While I'm in total support of the commercially prepared raw products being available, I think people tend to lose sight of the fact that even though they're feeding raw, they are still dealing with corporate interests, and the red tape and other crap is no different that if you were talking about kibble or canned food. Gotta run! Back for more later... | | | | |
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Kaya
All you need is- love :)
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| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 11:50am PST | | | | | | Good point Meridian. My main focus for feeding raw is to get away form the corporate control over what my dog eats. I do still use the products, but I try to make the majority of my pups diet from the grocery store with the same quality food I would eat. I don't go organic (too expensive) and I know there are always risks, as out food gets recalled as well, but I like the idea that I can create a diet that is not one size fits all for the two very different dogs I own who have very different needs. | | | | |
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Member Id: 496081 |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 1:00pm PST | | | | | | Smells so political doesn't it. Major dog food companies are losing big bucks to raw these days...have to put a stop to that. Vets are also losing money because raw fed dogs never need a vet, they're too healthy.
Won't affect me, I buy my meat from the butcher and make my own raw food, including the veggies. | | | | |
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Gunner
I solemnly swear- that I am up to- no good |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 1:54pm PST | | | | | | It does sound kind of over dramatic now that I think about it, but think about all the money that really big kibble corporations are losing. When I worked at Petco back in the summer, Science Diet sales were down 15% and Iams was down 20%. Solid Gold shot thru the roof! That was just my store, and the numbers were around the same for neighboring Petcos. Just think about all the people that are searching out the pet speciality stores for different foods and everyone who has been switching to raw and homecooked... I'm sure that's ALOT of money. | | | | |
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Ellie
Give me your- face so I can- lick it! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 2:36pm PST | | | | | | I've been wondering just that, Gunner, and you answered it! I was wondering if all these people switching to premium/super premium kibble or raw has actually had an effect on the commercial food companies. I'm so excited to know it has! Muahaha! Down with the commercial foods! Sorry about that...
But anyways, dang this sucks. Before I even got a chance to switch to raw, they're going to make it harder to get. I hope this doesn't go through. Is there a petition or something that will allow pet owners to voice their opinions? | | | | |
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Meridian
Proud to be a- kitchen wolf!!! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 3:34pm PST | | | | | | I wouldn't fret about pre-made raw getting harder to get or anything. This was one recall that affected one company. This happens to human-food industries quite frequently. People are still eating at Jack-in-the-Box, and I'm willing to bet packaged spinach is selling just as well as it was two years ago. Bacterial contamination, recalls, and general hysteria over bacterial contamination and recalls is just a fact of a food industry that is so global in scope. | | | | |
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