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My 3 month Akita HELP!

Got a new, young, furry love in your life? This is the place for you to ask all of your questions-big or small! Just remember that you are receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a vet or behaviorist! Most important is to remember to have fun with your new fur baby.

  
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Member Since
01/04/2009
 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 1, '12 6:07am PST 
Yeah! smile it's a very fast, gentle process. it's not meant to dicipline the puppy, only to see how they react to being turned over. it might last a few seconds at most.

i'm not into positive dicipline- if a puppy does soemthing I don't like, i tend to remove a stimulus rather then issue a correction.

plus, dogs have such short attention spans at a young age that i'm not sure that alpha rolling them would even really accomplish that much. its probably so scary that they forget what they did in the first place and then all they know is that the person that they trusted has placed them in a bad position.

i don't like ruling by fear. i tend to use positive training because we do some dog sports, and a timid dog isn't much good against sheep. plus, if a dog is too afraid to make a mistake you'll never get them to WANT to learn anything.
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Mishka &- Luna

1263406
 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 1, '12 3:42pm PST 
I never said I use the alpha rolling in discipline. And I simply held the dog in my arms or my lap with it on its back. My dogs feel safe and secure with me and trusts me. That is why they aren't afraid of me.
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 1, '12 4:38pm PST 
Alpha rolling, by its very name, IS discipline! Frankly, if I ever had observed one of my mother dogs put a puppy on its back that would be the LAST TIME that dog was ever bred. We do not need that type of temperament reproducing itself!
ALL research has shown that the pups (or, any dogs which go down in the presence of another dog) ARE NOT TOUCHED in any way by the other dog, they go down ON THEIR OWN, as a show of submission. The only time this is not true is in the case of an all out attack, where the attacking dog does put the other dog down with force, usually involving a serious bite to the neck. This has NOTHING to do with raising a puppy and it indicates a very serious issue with the attacking dog's temperament. It also creates serious fear/submission in the dog being attacked, fear which many dogs will carry with them for the rest of their lives.
I frankly do not want ANY of my dogs to be submissive/fearful of me. I want them to trust me and know that I am fair and will not bully them into some perceived form of submission by holding them down no matter if it is on my lap or on the floor. You said, "Prepare the puppy will fight to get off their back. you must hold them onto their back firmly." That sounds pretty much like force to me!!
I have had German Shepherds, labs, Frenchies, poodles and a Springer over the years and ALL of them have done competitive obedience as well as breed showing for most of them. NOT ONE of them has EVER been put into a submissive down, yet not one of them has EVER challenged me or anyone else for Alpha. I am NOT a dog, my dogs know that, yet they respect and, yes, trust me to keep them safe from harm and to not to harm them in any way as well. As a result of this trust, they are friendly and accepting to anyone who meets them, they are always obedient, and NOT ONE OF THEM HAS EVER BITTEN ANYONE!!
On the other hand, working with dogs professionally every single day, I have seen plenty of dogs who have been trained using "ALPHA" methods such as a forceful dominate down. While many of these dogs do not hesitate to instantly follow a command, it is very obvious that their are following the command BECAUSE they fear the consquences of failing to follow that command. Just watch their eyes...they will dart to the left and right, they will be throwing calming signals as fast as they can, and, if pushed, they WILL respond by snapping if not all out biting.
This is definitely NOT the type of dog I want living with me. I have dogs because I enjoy their companionship and enjoy teaching AND learning with them. I do not have them to lord my superiority, strength and status over them.
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 1, '12 5:23pm PST 
Shadow is 2 and still goes down if Sabi scowls at her. I have never seen Sabi put her down, she does it willingly. The only times Sabi has disciplined her or any other pup it was nips and growls. The pups go over or down on their own. If I saw Sabi putting a pup down I would never let her 'Auntie' for me again.
And again I would never try this type of training with an Akita.
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Mon Oct 1, '12 5:35pm PST 
Toto. applause

When I first got Charlie, I had the alpha/dominance theory in my mind because of what I had seen on tv, read, and heard from others. Then I came on dogster and discovered clicker training and positive reinforcement and found out that, in fact, the alpha theory is outdated and WRONG. Not only did I change my techniques, but my dog and I have an amazingly strong bond now. I can SEE the difference from then, and now - and now, we're got an amazing partnership and he will do pretty well everything I ask, AND loves to be around me and trusts me because he KNOWS I will not FORCE anything on him.

I'm a little appalled. Your first post and this last one contradict one another in that the first seems far more forceful and the last, makes it seem like you're trying to make it out to be gentle and KIND. It is not.

I have seen far more people feared by their dogs, or even BITTEN by their dogs because of these techniques. Setting up a dog to feel insecure and fearful in your presence is not going to help them in the long run. I can guarantee, especially when used as a disciplinary tactic, that alpha rolling will have the dog WALKING ON EGGSHELLS around you and wondering when the next moment you're going to do it again will be.

I can't even begin to imagine how seriously my cousin would have been bit if she had kept it up - the bites were gradually getting worse every time. And I certainly can't imagine what would have happened with her baby after she had him, had she kept putting Shasta in that position around the baby. My gosh... Can you imagine a dog that's forced into an alpha roll in front of a baby and learns to believe that the baby causes that to happen? They're not going to think "Oh, now I'm submissive to the baby" because let's face it, it wasn't OFFERED, it was FORCED. Instead, they're going to think along the lines of, "Everytime I see that small human, I get forced into this position.... am I supposed to like him/her?" Just an example of the damage it can do to a relationship, regardless of whether or not that dog continues to 'obey' and behave and look like they trust you.

I'm sorry, but there is NO REASON, AT ALL, EVER, to roll a dog or a PUPPY(who is still learning that people and other animals are good things, no less, and that they can trust you) onto their back unless it's for a medical reason.
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Mishka &- Luna

1263406
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 2, '12 12:42am PST 
I guess no one here can understand me when I say "I WAS TAUGHT BY MY TRAINER TO ROLL PUPPIES/DOGS ON THEIR BACKS" Lesson learned. Don't do it. I thought I was doing something right. Now can you all stop attacking me over this topic? That would be great. Btw when I give a command my dogs aren't fearful nor do they act fearful when I give the command. Their eyes don't dart back and forth, they don't flinch, their ears don't lie flat, their pupils aren't dilated etc. They calmly do as they are told.
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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 2, '12 5:21am PST 
Miska, our point is not to attack you but to point out that dog training is a continual learning experience and Alpha rolling is no longer an accepted method. We are NOT picking on you, but are trying to show the reasons WHY this is no longer used.
Fortunately, Huskies are a breed less likely to challenge when pushed to this extreme, however Akitas are a breed where mega issues can and will develop when forced to submit to training methods such as alpha rolling, and it is most likely not going to end well. I am experienced with the Husky breed...a good friend has been raising/showing them for years and we travel to the shows together so I do know a bit about their quirks and temperaments. I have also done a great deal of private training sessions with Akitas, as well as observed them in our daycare for years, so I feel I know some of the differences between the breeds. There is no way an Akita can be considered a big Husky.
Unfortunately, the internet is a vast place and one can only hope to educate others when bad information is given, which is a common occurance, especially in matters of dog training. I am glad you have learned from this exchange and hopefully you will find much improvement with training future dogs without using the Alpha roll.
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Mishka &- Luna

1263406
 
 
Barked: Tue Oct 2, '12 5:52am PST 
Well Toto to be honest I felt like I was being attacked. I was just going by with what I was taught and had learned. I just know that my huskies have never looked fearful or showed fear after the whole alpha roll thing. And I do know akitas are not like a "Big Husky". I just said they are totally different breeds but they have a lot of the same aspects.. They are both independent and strong willed breeds as well as having strong personalities. But I'll take this learning experience and teach it to others.
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Sonny

the world's- first blond,- agility Beagle
 
 
Barked: Thu Oct 4, '12 9:40am PST 
On a lighter note.
Sonny has been taught to role onto his back. Not by force, more by accident.

When he arrived in April of 2010 he was a horrible, ill mannered, 9 month old puppy with dreams of counter surfing. NOT in my house, pup. Asher suggested rewarding an alternate acceptable behavior, which we did. All we wanted was a sit, which was rewarded. As was a down. But he's a Beagle mix, so in time he created his own twist on things. Since it got him giggles, belly rubs AND a food reward it has become his default "Beg".

He will follow me and throw himself at my feet, upside down, if he's hungry enough.
We are working on "capturing" and labeling the behavior "Possum".

He still cracks me up.laugh out loudsnoopy
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