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Got a new, young, furry love in your life? This is the place for you to ask all of your questions-big or small! Just remember that you are receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a vet or behaviorist! Most important is to remember to have fun with your new fur baby.
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Petey
Drool - It bring's- treats! |
 | | Barked: Tue Nov 6, '07 8:41pm PST | |  | |  | | Addy, I didn't mean that reputable breeders only breed for profit.
From all of the information I have read on Dogster about reputable breeders. I think that one that has been showing and breeding dogs for a long period of time (I am thinking years) will eventually get to the point that they are at least beginning to make the money back that they invested.
I don't breed and don't plan on it but I do take very good care of my dogs and I know what it costs for quality vet care, training, food, treats, grooming, toys etc.
I have seen a puppy mill first hand. My mother in law knows the people. I think they are trash but don't know if anything can be done about them. Their way of doing things has my mother in law becoming a back yard breeder. She thinks she can make big money selling Siberian Huskies. She has already had one litter and it cost her every dime she made. The puppies got sick and had to have vet care. Which I thought was a good lesson for her to learn, although I kept it to myself. |  |  | |  |
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Rocky
Got Food? |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 10:04am PST | | | | | | Gray Dawntreader, you have made an absolutely wonderful original post. 
These are some of the things on my reputable breeder wish list:
1. A reputable breeder should contribute complete, accurate health information on all their dogs to a breed wide database
Use the database as a tool to:
- Calculate the Coefficient Of Inbreeding over 10 generations as a selection tool, specifically aiming to lower overall COI
- Examine pedigrees for common ancestors (for at least ten generations) and choose less related pairings before more related pairings.
- Track genetic problems
- Select breeding dogs for health and function primarily, with "type" a secondary concern
A reputable breeder should delay breeding until animals are at least two years old, preferably three for many breeds
As much as possible, choose assortative mating of phenotype to phenotype and never double up on a fault (as opposed to deliberately breeding within lines).
Limit the number of litters any specific single dog of theirs sires.
Follow up on ALL pups throughout their lives, collecting health, temperament, and performance information and contributing that information to an assessable database
Share complete, accurate health information with puppy buyers and other breeders
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It is unfortunate that our current health databases are closed, which means any information on non-registered or shown pups is not contributed, and as well breeders can with hold the reporting of bad evaluations. It would be very helpful if OFA etc. would be open and include information of ALL the offspring from registered dogs.
As the system is currently set up, thorough pedigree evaluation is impossible.
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I am a firm believer in Genetic Diversity, so I will add a reputable breeder should have a working knowledge not only in genetics, but in population genetics. This means they should attempt to make the most out of their purebred population, and not minimize the number of dogs used for breeding.
For this reason I am not happy with our current AKC/CKC show system either. We could do so much better.
For instance, in Sweden, the number of times a sire can be used is limited in relation to the numbers in the breed. (A Champion Clumber Spaniel can only be used twice!) They discourage close linebreeding, recommend a maximum COI at 6.25% (first cousin mating) and if you mate father with daughter, mother with son, or brothers with sisters your registration privileges are suspended.
Champions are awarded not in competition with another dog, but according to whether or not a dog is judged to fit the standard by a certain number of judges, therefore allowing more breed worthy dogs. Health certification is mandatory for breeding dogs and has to be produced before dogs can be awarded as well. The club also administrates an open health registry.
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I would like to put a word of praise out for the grassroots pet owners and breeders who started this Golden Retriever Open Health Registry in 1999
This link explains the ideas behind open health registries in more detail | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 11:01am PST | | | | | | It is unfortunate that our current health databases are closed, which means any information on non-registered or shown pups is not contributed, and as well breeders can with hold the reporting of bad evaluations. It would be very helpful if OFA etc. would be open and include information of ALL the offspring from registered dogs.
http://crestedhealth.ourdogs.net/
It's an open registry; ANY breeder or owner can submit health information for any registered dog. They haven't managed to make participation officially mandatory yet, but the social pressure on breeders to do so is considerable. | | | | |
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Lucy
Angel Puppy |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 11:27am PST | | | | | | Petey,
You're right...they do sometimes. I had family who bred rough-coated collies and she actually bought a house with her prize money. But that was a long, long time ago.
But I own 2 kind of expensive breeds. Both were rescues so I didn't pay much to get them. However, one has cost me so much more in helth care than if I'd gotten her as a pup.
Podengos typically are ~1300
Kerry Blues typically are ~1500
For both its from extremely reputable breeders for a not-show-quality pup. For labs, GSDs and others it'd be a lot cheaper. | | | | |
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Sammie and- Sophie
648663 |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 12:32pm PST | | | | | | Since there are alot more breeder knowledgeble people on here then i am, most of the dogs i see or work with are dogs headed to kill shelters or being disposed of in some other way,i havent had too much experience with reptutable breeders.So here is where i need some help, please....I recently had the honor of being chosen as a home for Sammie a chinese crested that due to his owner having tramatic life altering circumstances had to find homes for some of her dogs, she thought rehoming the younger ones she has had less time would be easier on the dogs then the older ones, none of them going was easy on her,she was not sammies first human, someone had owned him before her,wanting to learn more about him and his genetics i looked up the breeder on his akc papers, and told her i had an 11 month old puppy that was bred from her kennel and i would like some info on him, she told me that she could only divulge that info to the person who actually bought him from her, i explained how i was the 3rd person to have custody of him and how apparently the first buyer didnt want him and disposed of him and i did have him and his reg papers in my name, she reapeated then what she told me earlier, now i have heard a good breeder is happy talking about their dogs and lines for hours and would be more then willing to help you with anything if you had one of their pups or dogs,,,so trying another angle i wrote her an email and said i recently saw her puppies on line and was interested in purchasing one, and wanted some more info about them and her kennel, she sent me a one line email,saying, did i want a show dog or pet dog... im desperate to find out more about this kennel now and havent a clue how to , any ideas? sammie has some health problems his last owner and two vets cannot figure out, such as chronic loose stools ,and i would really like to know his genetic line, anyone? | | | | |
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Rocky
Got Food? |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 12:55pm PST | | | | | | "They haven't managed to make participation officially mandatory yet,"
Addy I commented that there are voluntary systems and we should be applauding them- the Golden Retriever Open Health Registry was the example I gave. Mandatory is what I am looking for.
We do have systems in place that are widely used, but they are closed - OFA and CERF being the two most commonly mentioned.
I think it is only right that the public be allowed to know that OFA and CERF are not open, and therefore, even though they are often mentioned as being part of the "reputable breeder" package, (and I agree that they are) they truly only offer a partial picture of ancestral health.
I believe that Treader's owner is looking toward becoming a breeder. The difference between closed and open registries is something they should be made aware of, and so should people who are purchasing dogs from breeders. Hopefully more customers will start asking breeders to voluntarily participate in open registries.
I am happily awaiting more breeding clubs starting with open databases, but currently in North America they are not mandatory and open registries like the ones you and I mentioned are few and far between.
As a customer, that leaves me really not knowing what my breeder truly is privy to. Breeders complain about this amongst each other as well. You can read about some of this on these links.
The Biggest Problem
The Ostrich Syndrome
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Sammie, your questions are part of the reason that I am complaining about our registries being closed. I have been in your position as have many owners of sick breeder bred puppies. Unfortunately for the you as an owner, you are at the mercy of the breeder and what she wants to tell you. She can disclose as little or as much as she wants to.
A reputable breeder would be willing to help you, but too many times breeders are pretending to be reputable, but really are not.
If you have Sammie's registration number, and/or pedigree you can look up any recorded health information on his ancestor's here. This is a voluntary system, so not all relatives info will be on here, only what the breeder has chosen to disclose.
clickable link to OFA records search page
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I will always continue to push for better breeding practices, and I have no qualms about pointing out the shortcomings in the system we have right now in hopes that puppy purchasers start to demand better and push breeders in that direction. | | | | |
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Bosley
Where are the- treats? |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 1:51pm PST | | | | | | Female dogs should not be bred until they are 7 years old????? In large breed dogs, a seven year old is considered a senior. In some giant breeds, seven years is nearing their maximum lifespan. Dogs should not be bred if they are under 2 years old, maybe 3 for giant breeds, but waiting until they are 7 is very impractical and unsafe for many breeds. | | | | |
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Maggie
Wishing For Snow |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 1:59pm PST | | | | | | I have seen pet store puppies that cost more than puppies from responsible breeders! Good breeders make little if any profit from their puppies. Any money made goes back into their dogs - health testing, stud fees, show and trial fees. If any breeder uses their dogs as a means of living, then they are not good breeders. | | | | |
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Belle
Short legs, long- body, huge- heart. |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 4:06pm PST | | | | | | some people in the town i live in post flyers everywhere announcing pug puppies for sale. today i even saw a man with the back of his suv open in a strip mall parking lot with a sign and a litter of lab puppies for sale. some people really disgust me. | | | | |
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Ruby
Im not fat! Its- fluff... |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 7, '07 4:35pm PST | | | | | | " If any breeder uses their dogs as a means of living, then they are not good breeders."
Wow - I find that a little general.
Ruby's breeder was an older retired lady who bred and showed Maltese for a living. She owned 12 Matlese herself, and worked with several other breeders/show dog owners to diversify great breeding lines for the best pups. She was a passionate and exceptional breeder who lives off the little she has left after selling her selectivley bred pups to continue doing what she enjoys.
That makes her a bad breeder? | | | | |
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