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Got a new, young, furry love in your life? This is the place for you to ask all of your questions-big or small! Just remember that you are receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a vet or behaviorist! Most important is to remember to have fun with your new fur baby.
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Ava
No, I'm the- baby! |
 | | Barked: Tue Nov 20, '07 2:21pm PST | |  | |  | | At least in this state, you can't, legally, charge a credit card customer more than the stated price for paying by credit card.
I think is true in all states because the credit card company is the one who has this policy. If a merchant charges more for using a cc, the cc company will revoke their merchant account. |  |  | |  |
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Frankie
Notorious D.O.G |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 21, '07 1:40pm PST | | | | | | I was very happy with the breeder that I used, although I admit that I did find her over the internet. She did all of the appropriate genetic tests and I picked Frankie up from her house so I did get to see the environment that they were in. She has about 2 litters available per year so its more of a hobby than a business. Anyway, I get emails from her now and then about new litters and I notice that she is breeding half brothers and sisters together most of the time. Frankie is very healthy and in good shape, but I was thinking..is that too much inbreeding to be healthy or is that the standard in breeding purebreed dogs? | | | | |
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If I have it- wrong someone- will tell me |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 21, '07 2:22pm PST | | | | | | Frankie when considering the DNA pool issue and associated problems I would find it reasonable to have concern and make judgement on responsible or ir-responsible breeding practices in that regard. I think people certainly have what they consider reasons for not maintaining a healthy seperation some may sound reasonable and some may not depending on each persons perspective. In the perfect world I do not think it wise in the scheme of things to perform close line breeding and might be a judgement breaker for many people seeking the services or product of a breeder. | | | | |
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Gray Dawn- Treader
Don't Tread on- me
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 | | Barked: Wed Nov 21, '07 2:32pm PST | | | | | | In-breeding isn't all bad or all good. It intesifies some traits, and when it does the good traits it's a yes. My opinion: A breeder shouldn't inbreed every litter, but it's okay fur some litters. Your breeder sounds  , although I would need to hear more about her to determine how good. One place in the web said that you could inbred fur a number of years, then outbreed fur a while, then go back to inbreeding. Inbreeding may bring up some traits the don't adhere to the standard sometimes, but no serious health problems result from it. Now fur people, it's a different story! Unless you find something really bad or upsetting about your breeder, then I say stick with her! | | | | |
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bijou
simply the best |
| | Barked: Wed Nov 21, '07 10:15pm PST | | | | | | "I notice that she is breeding half brothers and sisters together most of the time. Frankie is very healthy and in good shape, but I was thinking..is that too much inbreeding to be healthy or is that the standard in breeding purebreed "
...NO ! ...it sounds to me as if she is only (or mostly) using the dogs she owns rather than going outside her own lines to introduce new genes.
Inbreeding ( which is what this is) is occassionally done to fix a desired trait but the resulting offspring should be outcrossed to avoid the problems that can occur with too small a gene pool.
Line breeding is different - for example I am planning to mate Bijou next year - the dog I have in mind shares the same Great Grandfather ( he is in the fourth generation of both pedigrees) - but the rest of the stud dog's pedigree is not related to hers - I am therefore staying within a particular line that I want but allowing for enough genetic diversity.
Your breeder may have a good reason for inbreeding so much ....but gentically she is playing a dangerous game  | | | | |
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Rocky
Got Food? |
| | Barked: Thu Nov 22, '07 10:25am PST | | | | | | Treader, if you are setting up to breed I think this would be a good group for you to join. In the group there are many very qualified science geeks who post - including breeders, geneticists and biologists. The group, as a whole, seems to not like the idea of close linebreeding or inbreeding what so ever. There are many reasons for this. Join and read. I promise you will learn a lot.
I consider inbreeding a very lazy and risky way to set type, although many breeders mentor it. I would hope that you look for input from others, not just a mentor, as sometimes they have it wrong, as it has been mentored to them wrong. Distant linebreeding is (I think) sometimes justifiable depending on the breed and its numbers.
Canine Genetics Discussion Group Continuation from Dr. John Armstrong’s Canine Diversity Group
Frankie, that kind of breeding would be a deal breaker for me. Any breeder who inbreeds in a population where breed type is already set, and where there are lots of other dogs to choose from, is not even the tiniest bit concerned for the health of the pups they produce - either that or they are ignorant of the risks.
You ask if that is a standard way of breeding in purebreds, and unfortunately for some it is. They are ruining breeds this way, and the clubs here are not regulating them. Look for another breeder who knows better.
From this link:Why then is inbreeding so dangerous?
One thing - that every educated breeder knows about - is that it means an increased risk of doubling up on harmful or lethal recessive genes. . . .
. . . Some people think that the inbreeding clears out the harmful recessives and leads to a healthier breed for the future. But first, the inbreeding doesn't clear out anything in itself, it has to be combined with a strong selection in order to clear out any undesirable genes. Second, you have to inbreed incredibly strongly in order to get all or almost all loci homozygous . . .
. . . It is possible, this can be done, if you are careful not to let the level of homozygosity increase more quickly than you manage to weed out the bad genes. This has been done with mice that are to be used for scientific tests. It works very well! But... they only manage to get about one line out of twenty to survive. The other 19 lines are dying in the process. Maybe better not to take that chance? . . .
. . .Also, the immune system is not very good in homozygous individuals. The immune system works much better if the loci involved are heterozygous, since this gives the individual the possibility to develop more DIFFERENT kinds of antibodies, not just lots of antibodies of the SAME kind. | | | | |
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bijou
simply the best |
| | Barked: Thu Nov 22, '07 9:58pm PST | | | | | | Rockey - I joined this group ....and I have to say I have never encountered such a closed minded set of folk in my life !! - they have one agenda i.e all show are breeders are 'bad'... I'm afraid that after several atttempts to put forward what I believe is the 'typical' show breeders point of view I just gave up.
IN breeding is not used extensively by breeders of show dogs - LINE breeding is - I would suggest that it is those who breed the very popular breeds commercially and limit the dogs they use to those that are 'in house' -and who do no health testing - who are the real culprits in the prevelance of health problems in breeds such as GSD, Cavaliers etc etc not those who breed for the show ring. | | | | |
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Gray Dawn- Treader
Don't Tread on- me
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| | Barked: Sat Nov 24, '07 2:19pm PST | | | | | | If you go to Dogster Answers you'll find lots of people have questions about breeders. How about passing some of knowledge over there, guys? Even if my mistress doesn't live to breed dogs, she at least wants to help in some way, and answering questions people have is the way to do it. | | | | |
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Gray Dawn- Treader
Don't Tread on- me
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| | Barked: Sun Nov 25, '07 11:53am PST | | | | | | In the "right breed" forums, Chong brought up an interesting topic:
" it really scares me, from a rescue worker perspective, when people go onto a site like this for advice about a breeder on the off chance that someone somewhere may know anything about that breeder, looking at someone's website can give no one a real sense of the level of responsibility that breeder lives by;
if the person is looking for a show or trial dog then word of mouth is the best way to find the breeder with the dogs right for what they want to do, not some random advice from strangers;
if perhaps they were looking for people who happen to be located in their area who might actually know the breeder, then specify so in the post, how hard is that, then there is no confusion about the purpose of the question;
aside from the fact that i did point out there are plenty of purebred dogs in rescue, and lots of dogs competing who came from rescue; "...."i don't think, in light of the millions of dogs euthanized each year simply from lack of homes (i'm not taling about viscious or ill dogs) that there is a forum on a so-called dog-lovers website where it IS inappropriate to bring up rescue as an option "
I have a response:
Yes, many people on here are perfect strangers. When someone reccommends a certain breeder, you don't just use that breeder because they say it's good. You may CHECK OUT the breeder because of the reccomendation, but you don't buy from them unless YOU think they are good enough to buy from. And yes, you don't judge a breeder completely by their website. But if they talk about things that breeders should know on the website, then it's one BIG plus. Although it doesn't guarentee that they do what they say. What do you say? | | | | |
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If I have it- wrong someone- will tell me |
| | Barked: Sun Nov 25, '07 2:31pm PST | | | | | | Gray-Dawntrader-TN since this is your thread and you asked I would agee with you. While we are on the topic I can tell you from experience and I am sure everyone will agree that you must also be cautious and do alot of research before you acquire a dog from a shelter or rescue.
Regardless of what information is or is not contained on a web page,newspaper,magazine,video,radio, flyer. or from another person about a particular rescue organization or person one needs to be aware of the fact that not all rescue experiences will be without pitfalls and issues that result from failures in poor process and lack of information.. When you consider the number and types of dogs in rescue situations coupled with the often times shortage of resources both in material,manpower, and knowledge you never know what negative issues might come up in dealing with a rescue situation. In many cases you will be on your own dealing with any health issues or behavior issues that a reputable and responsible breeder should provide knowledable assistance on. In many cases understandably so it is not possible, feasible, or a good situation for the dog that it be taken back to the shelter or rescue as seems to be a on going issue with rescue dogs.
In both cases I would suggest that anyone acquiring a dog from a breeder or rescue do there homework and base the final and hopefully responsible final judgements at the point and place of acquisition regardless of all of the other bits of information you may have read or have been told.. Edited by author Sun Nov 25, '07 2:47pm PST
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