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Got a new, young, furry love in your life? This is the place for you to ask all of your questions-big or small! Just remember that you are receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a vet or behaviorist! Most important is to remember to have fun with your new fur baby.
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Byron
Small dogs can- have BIG jobs! |
 | | Barked: Mon Nov 19, '07 2:37pm PST | |  | |  | | Actually, when it comes to rehoming, most responsible breeders I know in my breed do not give the owner an option of rehoming the dog. The dog must be returned to the breeder, because it is under contract to do so. If the dog is given to another owner, the contract is void. That is a legal issue. The breeder may take recommendations from the previous owner about prospective homes, but does not have to choose a suggested one.
For instance, the dog could have been bought by a woman who later got married. Then she got divorced and moved into non dog friendly housing. The exhusband bonded strongly with the dog and meets all of the breeders' criteria. Then, the breeder may consider placing the dog with the exhusband at the woman's request.
Another example, my breeder placed a dog in a wonderful home. Regretfully, the owner was murdered a couple of years later. Many of her friends and family wanted the dog, BUT the dog was under contract with a return to breeder clause. The breeder went through heck trying to find the dog after the incident and returned it to her home. She sympathised with the family and friends who wanted the dog, but in the end she interviewed everyone and determined that the dead owner's parents were the best match for the dog. So she wrote a NEW contract between her and the parents for the dog and released him to them.
While this may seem cruel, it is in the dog's best interest. That breeder has the dog's need as her first priority. What would have happened if the parents lived in a home with several rowdy large breeds who like rough play? This is an IG, so it is not suited for that and could break a leg. Thus, the parents needed to be judged by the breeder for suitability. |  |  | |  |
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Pugsley
I Might Be Small- But I Have It- All!
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| | Barked: Mon Nov 19, '07 6:12pm PST | | | | | | Gray, thank you 
Oh and also that was just an example I am sure most people who are looking for a good breeder would expect that... I was just trying to state what is so important to one person, might not be important to the next.
People on here are saying a waiting list is important and that shipping is a no no and so is credit cards and placing ad's in papers.. Maybe other people think different and find other things more important, like health test or showing.
It seems like people on here think what they think is a good breeder is what everyone else has to think.. | | | | |
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Byron
Small dogs can- have BIG jobs! |
| | Barked: Mon Nov 19, '07 6:37pm PST | | | | | | Sorry Pugsly, I wasn't responding to your comment personally. I totally understand your point. It is up to the prospective owner to decide what they are comfortable with. If a breeder has certain qualities that you like, but is lacking another, it is up to the prospective owner to decide if that is a deal breaker or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.
My particular breeder is awesome. I judge her to be very responsible. However, I do not like the food that she feeds nor does she offer a health guarantee. Now many people would tell you that those are deal breakers. They are not to me. I've talked at length to her about her practices. For one, she has a bunch of dogs to feed, so super premium food isn't a good choice financially. But she feeds the best that she can afford. So thats fine to me. Also, she doesn't offer an official health guarantee. But she tests her dogs and registers them. The paperwork is always there for me to look over and she is upfront with everything. She says quite frankly that while she does all the research and all the tests, there are no guarantees with a living being. I agree with her and quite frankly if she did offer one and something popped up, I'd never use it. I'd never want to give up my dog.
I, personally, was responding to the idea of return to breeder contracts and why they are often used. Someone mentioned return to breeder if you can't find another appropriate home. That is different from the standard return to breeder clause (that is often required by national breed clubs), which I outlined in my previous post. They are non-negotiable, as they are a legal issue (since they are written into the contract).  | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Mon Nov 19, '07 6:57pm PST | | | | | | People on here are saying a waiting list is important and that shipping is a no no and so is credit cards and placing ad's in papers.. Maybe other people think different and find other things more important, like health test or showing.
No one said shipping is a "no-no." Advertising shipping on the website, especially when combined with allowing people to "reserve" or place deposits on puppies without any screening or any direct contact between breeder and potential buyer, is a serious red flag. However, after the potential buyer has been screened and accepted, many very responsible breeders will ship, if that's what's necessary to get the right puppy to the right home.
Credit cards: Genuine responsible hobby breeders, who have no other reason to have a business account that allows them to accept credit card payments, can't afford to do it solely for selling puppies. If they don't have another business that requires that business account, and really have it solely for the sale of puppies, the chances of them really being responsible breeders plummets sharply. BUT, some people do have those accounts for other purposes, and for the right buyer, will sometimes accept credit card payment. On the third hand, many breeders like the evidence of additional commitment involved in the buyer coming up with the price in cash.
Newspaper ads: Sorry, anything is possible, but generally the only breeders who need to place newspaper ads to sell their puppies are BYBs. Both the responsible breeders and the bigger puppy mills rarely need to do that.Edited by moderator Mon Nov 19, '07 7:47pm PST
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Rocky
Got Food? |
| | Barked: Mon Nov 19, '07 7:35pm PST | | | | | | "I totally understand your point. It is up to the prospective owner to decide what they are comfortable with. If a breeder has certain qualities that you like, but is lacking another, it is up to the prospective owner to decide if that is a deal breaker or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. "
Byron, I think this is very well said. I have to wonder how far it goes though.
I currently am well acquainted with a 20 year Tibetan Spaniel show breeder, who has littered two litters of Tibetan Spaniel/Cavaliers from her Champion Tibbie stud. She has her reasons for doing so, and I completely support them. She has retained a pup or two from each litter for her purposes. I would have to delve long into toy spaniel history and Cavalier health to explain what the reasons are for the mix, so I won't.
Yet, constantly, I here absolute and blanket statements that categorize breeders who would breed mixed breed dogs as disreputable.
I am a fan of genetics, canine diversity, and outcross projects, and admittedly am very skeptical that any of us should be following this kennel club idea of "breed purity". (Frankly, I liked breeds as they existed for thousands of years before closed stud books were imposed - as broader breed types.)
I am well acquainted with more than one very reputable breeder who does not necessarily breed purebred dogs.
I highly recommend this book by Don McCaig, The Dog Wars
This statement by him reflect my thoughts very well.
"McCaig generously suggests that the AKC is guided by something else -- a vision that can best be described as religious in nature, since it seems to operate both independent of fact and based on faith alone.
And what is that faith? McCaig writes:
Throughout the fight, I kept stumbling over a simple truth without quite seeing it: dog fanciers and their creature, the AKC, really do believe that what is most valuable about any dog can be judged in the show ring, "that the show ring is the sole legitimate purpose and reward for all dog breeding. They even believe, against all evidence, that the show ring 'improves' breeds."
I too believe, "It is up to the prospective owner to decide what they are comfortable with." | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Tue Nov 20, '07 6:19am PST | | | | | | Skip, credit cards are great for impulse purchases. It takes most people some planning to have $500-$1500 in cash on hand. And, cute red herring you got there, but we're not talking about someone who is "carrying around" that amount of cash routinely, who just happens to have it handy when they happen upon a breeder and see a nice puppy they'd like to take home.
The breeders that have those cute little logos on their website advertising the fact that they take MasterCard, Visa, American Express, PayPal, and allow people to "reserve" and place deposits on puppies with no direct contact between buyer and breeder--those breeders are not screening their buyers on any basis except their payment clearing. AND, they have enough volume in puppy sales that it's worthwhile for them to have business accounts with the major credit cards for the sale of puppies. And that means they're not breeding just one or two litters a year. They're commercial puppy producers.
Responsible breeders who have those accounts for unrelated reasons MAY be okay with using them to allow the right buyer to purchase the right puppy more conveniently, but they won't be advertising that fact upfront, prominently, on their website.
Shipping--unlike large-scale production of puppies and "screening" buyers solely on the basis of their MasterCard credit limit, that's something on which responsible breeders geuninely disagree. Many will, if every thing else is right and the puppy is old enough, ship to the right buyer. Many won't. The complicating factor is that breeders who are comparatively isolated from others in their breed limit their choice of studs for their bitches if they will never ship a dog, and they limit their access to shows and competitions and thus increase the length of time necessary to title even the best dog, which can delay breeding beyond what they consider ideal, given that most prefer to retire their breeders no later than five or six years old. | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Tue Nov 20, '07 8:54am PST | | | | | | I would not agree however with a reputable breeder being less responsible,reputable, or ethical simply
because they would take 3% less or choose to absorb the cost of excepting a paypal or credit card payment. Again they could always make the customer absorb the difference if they chose to use that form of payment which some do.
Okay, this is not to disagree with your main point, here, but:
At least in this state, you can't, legally, charge a credit card customer more than the stated price for paying by credit card. What you can do, is offer a discount to cash customers. But that means structuring your prices around credit card payment as the norm, which is not how most responsible hobby breeders are going to think. If I see a breeder stating a price for a puppy, and offering a discount for cash payment, I'm going to run screaming in the other direction.
The only real choice is absorbing the cost of the credit card transaction.
But, yeah, I think we didn't disagree as much as we thought we disagreed. | | | | |
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