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Got a new, young, furry love in your life? This is the place for you to ask all of your questions-big or small! Just remember that you are receiving advice from other dog owners and lovers... not professionals. If you have a major problem, always seek the advice of a vet or behaviorist! Most important is to remember to have fun with your new fur baby.
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Pugsley
I Might Be Small- But I Have It- All!
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 | | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 1:39pm PST | | | [notify] |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 2:20pm PST | |  | |  | | Pugsley, Daisy is telling you the truth.
The new responsible breeder has a mentor, normally the breeder of her foundation bitch. They plan the breeding together, and the more experienced breeder is the one with the waiting list.
Now, a waiting list doesn't necessarily mean that when the litter's born, every pup already has a home. There might be "extra" pups--I know of a case where a German Shepherd bitch, who'd had five pups in her first litter, had eleven in the second litter. Yes, the breeder had lined up more screened buyers than he expected pups--but not six extra! He had several pups whose homes had to be found after birth. Or suppose someone among those screened buyers wants a male and all the pups are female. Or it's a Chinese Crested litter--someone wants Hairless and the litter is all Puffs, or vice versa.
So having a pup or two available isn't automatically a red flag. The entire litter being available is. (Yes, sometimes even a very responsible breeder will have an "oops" litter, but even then, they can get the word out, contact people who were waiting for a pup from a different breeding--people who are looking for strictly a pet won't mind if it's not an ideal breeding, as long as it's a healthy breeding.) And posted prices is a red flag. Being able to place a deposit online is a red flag.
But responsible breeders will normally have a waiting list one or two homes longer than the number of puppies they expect, because they won't breed until they are reasonably confident of homes for all the puppies.
And, yes, that contract requiring that the dog be fed raw? I'd walk away, without hesitation, from any puppy contract that was overly specific about what the puppy should be fed, even if I generally agreed with the choice. Why? Two reasons. 1. Every dog is an individual; what works for one won't necessarily be the best choice for another, even in the same litter. 2.There's a fine line between being concerned about and taking responsibility for the puppies you breed, and being overly controlling. Requirements about showing/competing a show-quality puppy sold with breeding rights is one thing and not overly controlling the way it might look to someone unfamiliar with the showing and breeding world. Requiring certain health checks is the breeder's way of keeping track of the results of their own breeding program--especially when there are not DNA tests for certain hereditary problems, periodic health checks on the dogs through their lives are the only way to determine if the line that looks clear of those problems, really is clear. Banning certain training methods can be a part of making sure the pups are safe and well, especially in breeds where the obvious competition activities have traditionally been associated with very coercive training methods.
But requiring a specific diet with no wiggle room for independent judgment is claiming the right to run someone else's household, and I wouldn't want to be in a long-term relationship with that person. Likewise requiring certain training methods; that's very different from banning certain coercive methods.
So one thing to look for in a breeder is--Are you comfortable with having a long-term relationship with this person? Different people will freak at different kinds of requirements; are you comfortable with the mindset of the breeder you're dealing with, or will you feel, in two or three years, that every move you make with your pet is being second-guessed?
Ah, I'm going on too long, and probably rambling incoherently by now. Is it a bad sign that I agree with everything Daisy has said in her last few posts? Daisy, is that worrying you?  |  |  | |  |
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Grace
Goodness- Gracious!
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| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 2:56pm PST | | | | | | With the waiting lists, any reputable breeder should have a whole flood of people that they should be able to pick and choose from to even put on a waiting list for a litter.
One of the breeders I wanted to be on a waiting list for didn't do waiting lists until she had decided when she'd be doing a breeding. Then she'd filter people out (ones she didn't like, ones that weren't suitable owners) and then contact the ones she liked to be on the waiting list for that breeding before it even took place. Once you were on that waiting list (usually 8 people) you were on it, and basically couldn't take it back. (Which, if you were picked to be on this waiting list, you'd be crazy to take it back.)
And then from there, when the puppies were born you'd put your deposit down. And if you didn't when she asked for it, you were replaced on the waiting list by somebody who didn't make it on there, ect.
I thought this was a WONDERFUL way of going about it, and certianly the best way of putting her puppies into the homes SHE wanted. Then again, it's hard to do this unless your reputable, have good dogs and a good reputation!
ETA: A lot of puppies that I see on reputable Bullmastiff sites looking for good homes are the puppies or puppy that that breeder kept behind to evalutate for show. A lot of these puppies are older, or since the breeder decided they're not show potential, need a companion home. I know in my breed, showing is a big deal to most people looking for a well-bred Bullmastiff, so companion homes to well-bred dogs are hard to come by! Especially when the folks looking at these well-known reputable breeders are looking for a young show-quality dog. There are so many Bullmastiff BYB's, ect. that sell Bullmastiff puppies cheap, that people feel compelled and drawn to them instead of taking the (more healthy) reputable-breeder bred companion puppy for a little bit more money. (Plus, in my opinion, some people are just too darned lazy to do REAL thorough researach to find a good breeder. Quick, cheap and easy is what they look for in a puppy. "Why pay more to have to take the time to go through that whole spay/neuter contract and have to spend the money to get the procedure done" is their attitude...)Edited by author Fri Nov 16, '07 3:03pm PST
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Pugsley
I Might Be Small- But I Have It- All!
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| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 4:40pm PST | | | | | | Well, I believe I said I see where Daisy is coming from... However, people on here are saying you shouldn't be able to just go to a breeder and get a puppy, if they have puppies available, run the other way.
Like I said in my other post, things happen. One or 2 pups isn't a red flag and doesn't mean you should run the other way. A whole litter? Sure, I would be worried. But one? two? Like Pugsley? I didn't run the other way and I am glad I stuck with my decisions and in no way feel that I went to a "Byb" because she had one puppy listed on her site as "available".
There are other things to look for BESIDES a waiting list... What if they do everything else you say, but don't have a waiting list? Maybe the have homes already lined up, but one or two pups in the litter don't have one? It's not like they are going to throw the pup away, they are going to keep them until they find a home, but since they didn't have a home right then and there they are put in with the BYB?
Hell, what if someone has a waiting list, but has horrible puppies? You don't know...
All I am saying, don't tell people to judge on a waiting list... a waiting list is the LAST problem you should worry about. I would be more worried about health test and those type of things more then I would if they have some stupid waiting list.Edited by author Fri Nov 16, '07 4:41pm PST
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Ava
No, I'm the- baby! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 6:24pm PST | | | | | | I just want to add something about a waiting list.
It's really hard to decide you will sell someone a puppy before you can actually evaluate the litter. In my breed, someone can be on a list who has small kids and the entire litter be too small to place with that person. | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Fri Nov 16, '07 8:07pm PST | | | | | | One or two pups available isn't "no waiting list." It's one or two pups that were "extra," i.e., more than the litter was expected to produce and therefore weren't promised to anyone, or who for one reason or another didn't fit the people lined up for them, or an older pup that was held back to be evaluated for show potential and didn't pan out as true show quality. My sister's Lab is that way--a perfect, beautiful Labrador Retriever in every way, except that she's two-thirds the size an adult female Lab should be.
And no, having a waiting list isn't the be-all and end-all, a guarantee of a good breeder. Some BYBs and puppy mills have waiting lists. But, lack of a waiting list is a red flag, because a responsible breeder will have a waiting list before breeding in all but the most unusual circumstances.
It's not a breeder having one or two puppies available that's the danger sign. It's the breeder that, as Pugsley said, has a whole litter available--and it's also the breeder that always has puppies available. The responsible breeder breeds at most two litters a year, and generally less often. Someone who always has puppies available, even if it is just one or two from each litter, is someone who's breeding too often. | | | | |
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skip
If I have it- wrong someone- will tell me |
| | Barked: Sat Nov 17, '07 12:49pm PST | | | | | | ******All I am saying, don't tell people to judge on a waiting list... a waiting list is the LAST problem you should worry about. I would be more worried about health test and those type of things more then I would if they have some stupid waiting list.*****
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Sat Nov 17, '07 8:19pm PST | | | | | | Skip, no one has suggested that the existence or non-existence of a waiting list is the sole criterion for determining whether a breeder is responsible or not.
However, it is one of the characteristics of a responsible breeder that they breed infrequently and have people asking for puppies from their dogs--and they often won't breed until they have a committed waiting list, people willing to put deposits on puppies from the planned litter.
By itself, having a litter without a waiting list is not proof of a bad breeder. By itself, taking PayPal isn't, either. By itself, breeding untitled dogs isn't. By itself, an overly-polished or overly cutesy website isn't proof of a bad breeder. By itself, the absence of clear statements of appropriate health tests on the website isn't. Nor is advertising in unlikely places--by itself.
But they're all red flags that raise concerns, and the more of those characteristics a breeder has, the less likely it is that you're dealing with a responsible breeder. | | | | |
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