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What's the deal with Garlic?

This is the place to share your best homemade dog food and treat recipes with each other! Remember to use caution if your pet has allergies and to make any diet changes gradually so that your dog's stomach can adjust to the new foods you are introducing.

  
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Crash- Dynamite

Live up to your- Name!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 9:51am PST 
So, adding a bit of real, fresh garlic as part of the seasoning to homemade food or treats would probably be fine.

Thanks!
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Audrey- Hepbull

I am not dumb, I- am ignoring you.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 10:06am PST 
"So, adding a bit of real, fresh garlic as part of the seasoning to homemade food or treats would probably be fine"

Yes Crash, and if you want to get the FULLEST benefit from the garlic, feed it fresh crushed within 15-30 minutes without cooking it so your dog gets the allicin.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 4:19pm PST 
No it wasn't a bulb per dog per day. It was a dog Max's size eating a bulb of garlic a day, larger dogs would get more, smaller ones would get less, it was the equivalent of 5 grams of fresh garlic per pound of dog, since the clove I weighed was 7 grams when I did the math I came up with 12 cloves for Max *would* cause trouble in the specified time. And how much less could also cause the trouble?

The reason the garlic was administered in that way was to avoid ulcers I suspect, garlic can cause them in the huge amount used in the study.

I cited one study and two articles. Dr. Messonnier's article would put the dog at about 1/3 the amount of garlic that causes damage in the study I cited. That seems a whole lot of garlic to feed to what advantage? And he suggests it best to have blood tests done to be certain there is no damage being done.

Dr. Wallner's article mentioned a couple chemicals that in combination with garlic can cause the same blood disorder.

A clove a day might be safe if the dog was healthy and got no other substance that causes the blood problem. 2-4 cloves might be safe for Max. Might. And why do it? Same as any other super food don't overdo it!

I have no problem using a bit of garlic as a seasoning. I have a big problem using it as an herbal remedy.
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Audrey- Hepbull

I am not dumb, I- am ignoring you.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 4:36pm PST 
Max, it was FIFTEEN TIMES the recommended amount those dogs were fed! For 7 straight days in a row!

I don't care HOW big your dog is or how much he weighs, deliberately giving a dog 15 times the recommended amount of ANYTHING is not safe!

The recommended amount of fresh garlic is 1.5 to 3 mg per 20 lbs,
they fed these dogs 45 GRAMS per 20 lbs, more than 15 times the recommended dosage

AND the abstract of the study was to find out if dogs given mega doses of garlic developed anemia and to see what those mega doses did.

In SPITE of massive doses which would be stupid for anyone to give their dog, NONE of the dogs actually DID develop anemia.

This study basically PROVED that garlic is NOT dangerous for dogs! They DELIBERATLEY overdosed the dogs, and is STILL didn't cause anemia like onions do.

Of COURSE overdosing a dog with a substance that damages red blood cells is going to DUH! damage red blood cells. But it STILL didn't damage enough of them to cause anemia, AND it started reversing within 2-4 days of them stopping the overdose.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 4:57pm PST 
Blood damaging dose was-
"4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight (5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days. "

Safe amount suggested by Dr. Messonier-
"As a general guideline, 1 clove of garlic per 10 pounds of body weight for dogs (and 1/2 clove per cat) can usually be fed safely each day. "

Max weighs about 17 kg. 17x5=85. 85/7=12 large cloves of garlic per day is a problem.

1 clove per 10 pound=4. 12/4=3. Dr. Messonier's safe dose is 1/3 the amount of the blood cell damaging dose.

Where are you getting your figure from? It isn't in the article you posted.
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Audrey- Hepbull

I am not dumb, I- am ignoring you.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 5:13pm PST 
"Blood damaging dose was-
"4 dogs were given 1.25 ml of garlic extract/kg of body weight (5 g of whole garlic/kg) intragastrically once a day for 7 days. "

Safe amount suggested by Dr. Messonier-
"As a general guideline, 1 clove of garlic per 10 pounds of body weight for dogs (and 1/2 clove per cat) can usually be fed safely each day. "

Max weighs about 17 kg. 17x5=85. 85/7=12 large cloves of garlic per day is a problem.

1 clove per 10 pound=4. 12/4=3. Dr. Messonier's safe dose is 1/3 the amount of the blood cell damaging dose.

Where are you getting your figure from? It isn't in the article you posted"

It was in the article YOU posted...one of the links, just happend to be the first one I clicked.

anyways WHY would you give Max 12 large cloves of garlic a day?????

What would be the purpose of giving ANYTHING to your dog that was such a HUGE amount over what is most commonly recommended????

"Dr Messonier's safe dose is 1/3 the amount of the blood cell damaging dose."

Dr Messonier seems to say this CAN be given safely, as in don't go over this. If even this MAXIMUM amount (and that does seem to be on the HIGH end of the most common recommnedation)is STILL 1/3 of the amount that caused red blood cell damage, WHY would you see that as giving a dog 1/2 or 1 SMALL clove, as in 1 to 3 grams, would be unsafe????

Precise numbers don't even matter, it is irrelevant when you use some COMMON sense and not give an enormous amount of ANYTHING to a dog. 1/2 to 1 SMALL clove of garlic is NOT 12 giant cloves by any stretch of the imagination.

The study did prove that even at very high doses for an extended period of time, the dogs did NOT develop anemia, nor did it cause serious long term red blood cell damage.
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Maxwell

I'm triple- superior MAD- now!
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 6:16pm PST 
Seven days is not an extended length of time. The minimum amount needed to damage the blood was not determined, that study deliberately overdosed to get an effect. What other chemicals have the same effect and do you know if you are giving them to the dog? That is my concern. Here is an article aimed at us taking garlic supplements. Dogs do take many of the same drugs. Atopica is cyclosporine for instance, doesn't look like it adds to the blood cell damage though.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/300.htm l

I didn't click on the Onibasu link from dogaware, thought it was dead for the K9Nutrition list. Be helpful if you could post where you got your quote next time. I was going crazy looking for your source! Calculations are correct if you use grams instead of mg of garlic.

"Yes, as would using normal amounts instead of megadoses. The recommended amount of fresh garlic to give to dogs is 1/2 to 1 small clove per 20 lbs of body weight. A clove of garlic weighs around 3-4 mg. Contrast this dosage, which would range from about 1.5 to 3 mg per 20 lbs, to the dosage used in this study (5 grams/kg, which is over 45 grams per 20 lbs, more than 15 times the recommended dosage)."
http://onibasu.com/archives/kn/132884.html

As for common sense I have to work really hard at it. I do take all the super food nonsense with a grain of salt and just incorporate all such things into the diet without investing in cupboardfuls of the latest fad. Max will not be getting 12 cloves of garlic a day. He is unlikely to get any, poor guy, as I no longer even bake liver cookies flavored with a single clove of garlic or not.
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Audrey- Hepbull

I am not dumb, I- am ignoring you.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 10, '11 6:48pm PST 
"Seven days is not an extended length of time. The minimum amount needed to damage the blood was not determined, that study deliberately overdosed to get an effect."

Yes 7 days IS an extended length of time to overdose a dog. If a dog happens to get into a clove and eat it once, THAT would be an "Oh Crap!" moment. But if someone let their dog get ahold of a whole clove of garlic, 7 days in a row, THAT would be negligence.

No one here at dogster is conducting experiments on how much it will take to actually cause anemia, they are talking about normal recomended amounts. AT least I sure HOPE no one is deliberately overdosing their dog on ANYTHING just to see what it will do!

The minimum may not have been determined, but they DID determine that even AT the high deliberate overdose amounts, no anemia happened.

That is the WHOLE POINT OF THIS CONVERSTAION. That garlic is safe, and as this study PROVES, even at a high dose, for a length of time that a dog owner would NOT allow to happen, it does NOT cause anemia. So no worries!

"What other chemicals have the same effect and do you know if you are giving them to the dog? That is my concern. Here is an article aimed at us taking garlic supplements. Dogs do take many of the same drugs. Atopica is cyclosporine for instance, doesn't look like it adds to the blood cell damage though."

It WOULD be irresponsible to give your dog medications without first discussing with the prescribing vet about ALL the supplements the dog is taking. I know BOTH my vets ask that at every visit. It is no different from people taking prescription drugs, they MUST let the DR know what they are taking. I just took Audrey to the vet and I had a list of ingredients of EVERYTHING she took to make sure there were no contradictions and no conflicts.

And the Dr in the article I linked said that in those instances where the dogs were anemic and the garlic was blamed, when it was shown the dogs WERE taking the other things that made it FALSE to say it was the garlic. It wasn't. It was the other drug.


"As for common sense I have to work really hard at it. I do take all the super food nonsense with a grain of salt and just incorporate all such things into the diet without investing in cupboardfuls of the latest fad. Max will not be getting 12 cloves of garlic a day. He is unlikely to get any, poor guy, as I no longer even bake liver cookies flavored with a single clove of garlic or not"

Well I am not sure about "superfood" I only look for specific things to help with specific issues. Garlic has been used for several hundred years, that disqualifies it as the "latest" fad. Maybe earliest or oldest fad. Audrey can't eat cookies, if it's cooked she throws it up, so she only gets her food and some occasional bananas. She does get a SMALL clove of fresh crushed garlic once a day.
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Cookie

Our little- Medical- Professional
 
 
Barked: Fri May 10, '13 7:49pm PST 
Under No circumstances should you give garlic to a dog in any amount for any reason. Here is the truth: Thiosulphates in trace amounts cause trace amounts of Red Blood Cell destruction. No matter how little you give your dog you are causing your dogs red blood cells to explode. Do you want your dogs red blood cells to explode...Oh come on...just a few of them? I don't want to do that to my dog!!! Pet food Companies that use Garlic in their treats or food are just trying to appeal to the unwashed sect of people who buy into this home remedy biz about how helpful Garlic is for your dog. The truth is the amount of Thiosulphates in garlic counter any and all of the benefits that the Garlic could ever impart to your dog.
Even though your dog may never develop Hemolytic Anemia
none of the benefits that you think you are giving your dog are making it into their bodies because whatever wonders are in the garlic are also accompanied by Thiosulphates destroying the blood cells
that might carry those nutrients to the dog.

Edited by author Fri May 10, '13 8:15pm PST

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Member Since
12/24/2012
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 11, '13 11:40am PST 
I don't give my dogs garlic in any shape or form. Thiosulfates found in the allium family cause Heinz Body Hemolytic Anemia in dogs and some other animals. No safe dose of garlic has been determined.
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