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WHITE German Shepherd vs. Black and Tan

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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Tue Jun 4, '13 12:56pm PST 
That's possible Toto. I have definitely seen some whites who looked umm ... odd.

On the other hand that could have been a rumor started to justify keeping the whites out.
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Czarka, CGC- UJJ

Why walk when- you can run?
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 7, '13 1:17pm PST 
Guys! Check your GSD history please. Grief Sparwasser, Horand von Grafrath's (SV-1) grandpa, was white. The white is in Von Stephanitz foundation stock. It's been there from SV-1! Aimee Harder (http://www.wgsdca.org/thebreed/gsdvswgsd.asp) indicates that the SV (Verein fur Deutsche Shaferhund; Schaferhund Verein) began discriminating against the white GSDs as the Nazis dominated the club.
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Sat Jun 8, '13 1:04am PST 
That's what I said. We were just discussing supposed reasons for said discrimination.wink
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Destiny

And I'm On My- Way!
 
 
Barked: Mon Jun 24, '13 5:58pm PST 
The discrimination against whites started with Hitler due in part to a misunderstanding of the genetics of white and confusion with albinism (the black pigmented white GSD is NOT an albino!) and breed club politics. Horand v Grafrath had at least one white grandparent and many of the most important pillar dogs of the breed carried the white recessive. Many present day colored dogs still carry the white recessive, many more than those whose owners ever admit to.
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Sam

My Sammi
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 4:21pm PST 
One of the drawbacks to a relatively "new" line such as the all white, and all black GSD is the comparatively small gene pool. It's hard to know what you're going to get. But, a loving home, consistant training, patience, and care will net you a loyal, loving companion...who may be a little quirky, (but aren't we all?!)
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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Wed Sep 25, '13 6:03pm PST 
Solid black GSDs aren't their own line, and they certainly aren't new. Black GSDs have been around as long as the German Shepherd Dog breed has existed; the same is true of whites (as Czarka said, see Grief who von Stephanitz himself chose to breed). As others have said, the discrimination against whites seems to have begun with the Nazis, so I would guess that's probably when any temperament variations between whites and other colors began as people with different breeding goals took up the color. The color white itself isn't the reason for the differences in temperament.

The black, too, is nothing more than a recessive color, and blacks show up frequently in working line litters, whether they be West German, DDR, or Czech lines. The only reason you don't generally see them in show line Shepherds is because show people like their black and tan/red saddlebacks, so most show breeders breed away from the other colors. There are people who breed specifically for solid black GSDs, but it's still just a color.

Edited by author Wed Sep 25, '13 8:19pm PST

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Sam

My Sammi
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 26, '13 2:35pm PST 
While the entire GSD breed is relatively "new", introduced at the turn of the last century, and blacks and whites have popped up from the start, I meant the practice of breeding only whites with whites, and blacks with blacks as being even newer. (Actually, while blacks and whites can be registered with the AKC, whites are disqualified in the AKC show ring). Those gene pools are very small, relatively, and the occurance of physical and behavioral issues crop up with more frequency in those lines. A side note-I often have fun with people who are wary of GSD's in general because of misconceptions about the temperment of the breed. In England, as Hitler rose up and took power in Germany, love of the breed never waivered, but the Brits didn't want anything to do with the word "German" in the breeds name, so they began calling them Alsatian. It wasn't until 1971 that the Alsatian was again made one with the German Shepherd in English show circles! So, if I run into someone who's afraid of GSD's I say, "That's ok, Sammi is an Alsatian!" They've usually petted and played with her for awhile before they ask what an Alsatian is and find out they really like GSD's but didn't know it! Now, We in America have refined our version into a sleek, lighter boned model as they are more pleasing to the eye in the show ring. That's why most police and military stock is imported from Europe as they are closer to the origional sturdy specimen first registered by the founder of the breed, Max von Stephanitz. In conclusion, whatever the shape, size, or color, GSD'S ROCK THE WORLD!!!cheer

Edited by author Thu Sep 26, '13 3:26pm PST

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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 26, '13 5:14pm PST 
Breeding whites primarily to other whites began when the breed club decided the color was inferior. People involved in the SV weren't going to mix their colored dogs with the "inferior" white dogs. So from that perspective, yes, you could say the white Shepherd as its own line is newer than the original GSD, but by that token, the same could be said of the American show line GSDs.

I would love to see your source for the claim that whites and blacks have higher occurrence of physical or temperament problems than other colors. Certainly a splinter like white Shepherds is going to attract some bad breeders looking for a quick buck, but there are good breeders who produce consistent white Shepherds that are solid physically and mentally. As a matter of fact, many good WGSD breeders have herding titles on their dogs, and these dogs can be seen doing SAR, drug/explosive detection, service work, obedience, ect. ect. Really, the temperament of a well bred WGSD isn't that far-flung from that of a good American GSD, it's the working line GSDs they differ most significantly from.

Again, blacks can show up in any litter from any bloodlines as long as both parents have at least one recessive gene for the solid black color (the same is actually true of whites). While there are some breeders who breed exclusively black to black, I've yet to see one I would consider reputable. Good working line breeders care much, much more about temperament, health, and working ability than color. Any breeder who places their primary emphasis on color is not a good breeder, especially when they're breeding working dogs. A good breeder pairs dogs based on pedigrees, and the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs.

I can honestly say I've never seen black GSDs painted with the same brush as whites before now. Would you say the black/tan saddlebacks are a new line, more prone to problems because that color and pattern appeared and some people ran with it, breeding exclusively for B/T? Sable is genetically the most dominant GSD coat color, so clearly the genetic pool was reduced to produce the huge numbers of B/T GSDs we have today. There are far fewer breeders breeding only solid black GSDs than there are producing nothing but B/T. Unlike the B/T show line GSDs, most well bred solid black GSDs are from breeders who don't particularly care about color. Many black GSDs are from pairings where one or even both parents were sable, so nothing diminutive is happening to that gene pool based on color; it's not as though the black puppies are any less genetically diverse than their sable littermates.

The AKC is far from the be-all or the end-all in dog breeding, especially when discussing the German Shepherd Dog. Working line Shepherds, while allowed in the AKC ring, will never win over a show line Shepherd because they don't have the structure, or often color, the AKC considers correct for the breed. Yet working line GSDs are the ones doing the majority of the work the GSD was created to do. The UKC, who places a much higher priority on a dog's ability to do its original job, does allow whites and will place working line dogs. So which one is right? Depends on who you ask. Many GSD people feel clubs like the AKC are ruining the breed by rewarding exaggerated conformation and contributing to the loss of the structure and temperament of the original Shepherd. I think the American GSDs have their place, and a moderately bred Am. GSD can be a great dog, but to hail the AKC as the final word in GSD standards is farther than I'll go.

Edited by author Fri Sep 27, '13 12:34am PST

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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Sat Sep 28, '13 1:47am PST 
I'm with Onyx. I have yet to see a breeder of exclusively blacks that is any good. The solid blacks pop up lots in the working lines, and a whole lot in the Czech lines. My male is almost straight DDR and every litter that came out of that line had one solid black pup, always female.(and one long hair, sable males and red and black females). I have seen no literature that indicates a stronger likelyhood of health issues and would love to know your source.
The only reason the whites are bred separately is because the kennel clubs and breed clubs excluded them.
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