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Is there anything i can do? Prong collars for basic obedience

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Dyno

1285274
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 4, '13 5:54pm PST 
I posted this on another forum looking for advise...I just thought i'd post it here as well..
I am a little unsure if this was the right subforum, to post in, but since i'm trying to find out if there is any kind of legal action that i could take i decided to choose this one, if someone feels it should be moved to the training section feel free to do so
i know of two trainers, and i'm sorry but i deffinetly do not agree with theirtechniques and am curious as to what your opinions on it are. Keep in mind i do NOT have a problem with Prong collars, i own 2 myself. But i think this is overkill..

First dog i saw "trained" a husky puppy around 5 months old, as soon the dog saw the prong collar the dogs tail went inbetween it's legs, ears straight back, and he pissed all over the floor, they were training him agility, and sit, stay, and heel. The husky was afraid of the agility tunnel, if i was training this dog i would have tried to lure him in the tunnel with tastey treats. But what she did was shove the dog in the tunnel, and the person on the other side grabbed the end of leash and dragged the dog through they did this multiple times, and the husky's fear only seemed to get worse...

I thought agility and training was suppose to be fun not scary?

The other dog was a GSD, same age, and he had a similar reaction to the prong collar but he didn't pee.She was training him sit, and when he didn't sit the first time she told him she grabbed the lead with both hands and yanked straight up,THREE TIMES HARD,the dogs feet were off the ground. Any time the dog didn't immedietly respond to the command this would happen. When training lay down, they would step on the leash very close to the collar so the dog would be yanked down...


i saw a WHOLE lot of yawning during both training sessions, i doubt it was cause they were tired, BOTH dogs were not excited about the training At all, i felt so sorry for them..

And is it normal for dogs to be fearful of the prong collar? because none of the dogs i used a prong collar on were ever afraid of it, and i didn't use to prong to train the basics..
Apparantly to teach a puppy to sit for the first time you tighten the prong a lot and wait to see if the dog just sits on it's own, and if it doesn't and just freaks out you push it's but down and than release the prong.


Is there anyone i can contact about this or report this trainer too?

Well one of the trainers is FAR harsher than the others, and i was just wondering if there is anything i can do about it..He choked a dog who was "too hyper" with the choke chain until it passed out so "it could see the light of god", I was appalled and couldn't help but say something..And he admitted to me that it's not the first time he's done it and says he's a dog he can take it and that people are far too soft to their dogs.

I overheard him in a conversation about positive reinforcement training, and he says it's innefective because it's only bribeing, and the dog cannot be trusted to obey a command without a treat..(which i know for a fact isn't the case if it's trained right)
And he went on and on about how much quicker it is to train a dog his way.

And for every command they teach they choke the dog until it accidently does what they want barking the command at them the whole time, and the dogs reward for accidently doing it, is that it stops getting choked.
And it's funny because a lot of the dogs he "trains" only listen when the prong is on them

By the way this place has a VERY VERY good reputation and train police dogs..

BTW. I currently work there ( i want to quit ASAP but it's hard to find a job)I trained one of his imboarders recently, and when he did a lesson with it in front of it's owners he went on and on to me about how that was "the best lesson ever" and is now giving me more time to train the dogs he's suppose to be training...LOL little does he know i do not use his methods at all...
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Mr. Jake the- Beagle

I am Murphy's- Law Embodied! <3- Me!
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 7, '13 12:40am PST 
i'd drop a tip to your local ASPCA or rescue group. Maybe take a hidden video and post it. Or send a complaint about animal cruity to a local state run shelter or animal control. They usually investigate such things.

Prong collars are a mess. My grandma had one. Then it mysteriously found its way into my pocket and out of her house. To this day she's looking for it. SHe doesn't want to pay to buy another one. and her dog is happier for it.
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Cobain ADC,- SGDC, CGN

More Bored- Collies
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 7, '13 4:11am PST 
That does not sound like the correct way to use a prong collar.
And certainly not the right way to train agility eek Some people take Agility far too seriously. It's supposed to be FUN for both handler and dog. If the dog's running based on fear then it's not going to result in a good clean run. shrug
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Clyde

Ice cubes? YES- PLEASE!
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 7, '13 8:48am PST 
Yeah, that situation might be harsh enough to get the SPCA or animal control's attention. I agree that you should contact them.

Prong collars are for adult dogs. I only use mine (gently, at that) to help with impulse control in Clyde, who is a very big, strong, impulsive dog who is well-proofed in many commands. Anything that chokes should NEVER be used on a dog under 6 months regardless of size because it can ruin all kinds of anatomy in the dog's neck for life. I can understand him using pressuring to teach a dog commands, but it should always be light. If you wouldn't do it to a horse's bit, you certainly shouldn't be doing it to a dog's choke chain.
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Opheila

It ain't over- till the fat- kitty sings
 
 
Barked: Thu Mar 7, '13 4:41pm PST 
I agree with Mr Jake, get some videos, then turn them into the SPCA, with visual and written documentation somebody can stop those trainers. Even dogs trained for police work and combat aren't brutalized into performing. If they have the fear reaction you're describing they're removed from training, not forced further. Poor dogscry
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DandiLion

:D
 
 
Barked: Sat Mar 9, '13 10:17am PST 
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate thing to recommend, but perhaps post a note on your local CraigsList about their training methods? At least owners would be warned before bringing their pups in for that sort of abuse.

I think actually restricting breathing until an animal passes out would be considered cruelty/abuse. I can't see something like that being legal.

I use a prong on Dandi for walks. When the prong comes out she gets incredibly excited. No dog should fear a training tool; if they do, that tool is being abused.
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Sassy

~Hyper yet as- smart as can be~-
 
 
Barked: Sat Mar 9, '13 1:51pm PST 
I saw a post on a site called the dog training secret about police dogs and their training. It said that police dogs should never be trained using fear methods. You wouldn't want the dog chickening out on you, especially not if your life depends on the dog.

*****

"When I was slightly younger than I am now, and I was training very actively with one of my many mentors I was beginning to learn the world of police, military, competition, and attack dogs.

Ironically the older man who was teaching me was insistent on using positive reinforcement as often as possible. Unlike the woman who I began learning from he believed that NO PUPPY should ever have a prong collar on and that teaching dogs how to behave was the only way to train.

...Most people training police and attack dogs, especially back then, were all about corrections, and shock collars and punishment. And, even though he had been working with police departments for over 30 years, he wanted to be kind to the animals and teach them what to do, not force them.

He also refused to work with any dog that did not pass his temperament test. He always told me never to become the kind of trainer that “scares” a defensive or fearful dog into a behavior that makes him uncomfortable to bring out aggression.

He convinced me that these dogs may begin to come out of their shells and show signs of being aggressive in the work, but it was not a strong training technique and eventually something somewhere would break down.

He simply declined to work with a dog like that, for the sake of the dog and all the discomfort it would have to endure and work through while knowing that someday when a police officer’s life hung in the balance the dog might break down and revert to his first instinct of flight rather than fight.

That was an important lesson to me when I was young. You can force some dogs… but what does that get you and when will those behaviors break down?

So I never learned to use table or box work to make a dog more aggressive, I believe what he told me back then and I am grateful for the information and education he instilled on me when I was young. Seeing a big police dog trainer using the principles of positive reinforcement and reward was very powerful to me and was when I fell in love with the work."

*****

The above was taken directly from the dog training secret.

I use positive reinforcement to teach behaviors and then gradually switch over to punishment once the dog understands what's expected. I use the punishment, usually a sterner voice, more threatening posture, or even a little swat on the butt, for teaching them to listen to me without me repeating myself ninety times.

I would never do anything to make the dog fear what ever I am trying to have it do, however. I want them to know that not listening to my commands is not a good thing so if their lives depend on it one day I can keep them out of trouble.

It makes me so angry to see my dogs being submissive around my father. One of them is so scared of him right now she won't even go near him. He's constantly yelling at her to lay down even if she is already sitting and being calm. Ugh!
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Bella

1286574
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 11, '13 7:31pm PST 
Hate stuff like this. Not only is awful for the poor puppies but it makes things like prong collars seem like evil torture devices because that's basically how they are being used.

I did use a prong collar on a dog I was training agility once, he was an adult male, very strong and not at all touch sensitive and I was young. I don't remember really using it, it was just there so that if I needed it I would have a little more control than a normal collar.

He looked forward to it being put on though, which is the way it should be with any of that type of tool being use for training. He had so much positive interaction with it on that that's what he expected, lots of fun and goodies.

Prong collars aren't bad, but sometimes the people that use them are!

I sure hope you can do something about this, at least get the word out about these awful trainers.
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Mon Mar 11, '13 7:44pm PST 
You might be able to report them to the Better Business Bureau. You can certainly fill out negative reviews online at places like yelp, google, etc... Then spread the the truth through word of mouth.

There's a similar trainer that I know of in my area. Unfortunately he's not doing anything considered illegal. The most I can do is spread the truth about his methods to pet people that are willing to listen!
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Bucho- Montana

1297139
 
 
Barked: Sat Jun 1, '13 6:01pm PST 
My owner uses a prong collar on me only when we are training on a walk or at my obedience class. Other than that, i have my harness on. The prong collars should only be used by people who know how to actually use them. Those types of collars are supposed to resemble a mother dog nipping at her young when misbehaving. I do agility also but just in a regular collar, harness, and leash. Agility is supposed to be a bonding exercise for the owner and the dog.

Edited by author Sat Jun 1, '13 6:04pm PST

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