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This is a forum to discuss legislation and legal matters pertaining to the rights and welfare of dogs. Please remember to counter ideas and opinions with which you don't agree with friendly and helpful advice and responses.
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Member Id: 637333 |
 | | Barked: Thu Jul 3, '08 10:38am PST | |  | |  | | Oh you meant John Yates. No. I'm agreeing with Josie in that he's a fanatic, and I have a great dislike for PETA. |  |  | |  |
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Kolbe
Where can I run- today? |
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Dingo a.k.a.- Miracle Dog
Help save our- furry friends in- the South |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 3, '08 11:43am PST | | | | | | Kolbe i'm not sure what else i can say to make you understand about posting an entire article from an author that now is being considered a fanatic when all the facts about him are put on the table. I don't consider it "bizarre" i only found it odd that half way through everyone changes their story about the guy. First you're applauding him, then you're backing away. Unlike some people on here i stand by who i reference, otherwise i wouldn't. Understand now?! When i mentioned the reputable breeders that dump the dogs that arent' up to show standards, these are the kinds of breeders you all consider reputable. I said if it was a BYB they'd still sell the dog even if it wasn't up to certain standards, its the reputable show breeders that do dump their dogs and no matter what you say all of them are in it for the $ or prestige of owning a particular kind of dog. Show me otherwise! Another example of people buying their dogs from reputable breeders and still thinking they did an ok thing, is that poster Lucy who even promotes the puppymill on her page. She is like many out there...
blah blah blah... hope everyone out there has a happy 4th of July! | | | | |
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Kolbe
Where can I run- today? |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 3, '08 11:55am PST | | | | | | First you're applauding him, then you're backing away.
.... Please point out where I "applauded" Yates. If you look at other threads where people posted Yates articles I've done nothing of the sort... and I didn't do it here either.
Again, I don't consider breeders who cull animals "reputable" - please don't group me in with "you all" because I don't know who that is. And we will have to agree to disagree that breeders are only in it for the money, because I don't think you'd want to hear about breeding for stronger genetics, love of the breed, etc.
I'm sorry this made you so angry. All I did was state my beef with PETA, I apologize that it bothers you so much. I want you to have a happy 4th too. | | | | |
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Tia
Did you say- Ball? |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 3, '08 12:12pm PST | | | | | | I have just skimmed the thread, but did read Josie's original post.
It is too bad it went off on a "do we support the writer and organization" tangent.
I agree with Josie on this one, you can agree with a writer on something and that does not mean you are supporting them.
I happen to be against cropping and docking, but I see no use in making those procedures illegal. That is just incentive for some to to it.
I know that a lot more can be accomplished by good programs than can be accomplished by laws that restrict (because the bad guys don't follow the law anyway). Good programs change the way whole communities think, and then they influence others, and that is why they work.
I will brag again that we have not euthanized healthy and adoptable animals in Calgary for over 10 years - and it is because of programs.
We do not have BSL. We do not have MSN. We do have a 98% compliance rate for licensing and VOLUNTARY microchipping - with $$ incentive for having microchipped dogs. This was put to the public for a vote before it came about.
What worked here may only partially work in other places, but programs and education are well worth a great effort and should be tried long before restrictive laws that truly impact the responsible.
http://www.windsorhumane.org/pdfs/Bill%20Bruce.pdf | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 3, '08 12:12pm PST | | | | | | Dingo said:
Kolbe i don't think you'll ever hear me say ALL breeders are EVIL. In fact i've never said it or wrote it. I don't agree with it at all and i think even the reputable ones have one thing in mind and that's $$$! How often do you read about people buying the "reputable breeders rejects" that they got before the breeder put it down or brought it to the pound because its ears or tails were the wrong shape.
And also:
When i mentioned the reputable breeders that dump the dogs that arent' up to show standards, these are the kinds of breeders you all consider reputable. I said if it was a BYB they'd still sell the dog even if it wasn't up to certain standards, its the reputable show breeders that do dump their dogs and no matter what you say all of them are in it for the $ or prestige of owning a particular kind of dog. Show me otherwise! Another example of people buying their dogs from reputable breeders and still thinking they did an ok thing, is that poster Lucy who even promotes the puppymill on her page. She is like many out there...
You have a very confused idea of what a reputable, responsible breeder is.
Breeders who dump the dogs they don't want in pounds or shelters are not what Kolbe or I are talking about when we talk about "reputable" or "responsible" breeders.
Responsible breeders health screen andtemperament screen every potential breeding dog before breeding it. This means screening for genetic problems, not just a regular vet exam to assure that the dog is currently healthy.
Responsible breeders compete their dogs in something, not necessarily conformation showing, but something that means the dogs get judged and evaluated by third parties, and title their dogs before breeding them.
Responsible breeders breed occasionally, normally not more than one or two litters a year, and in many cases, not even that often.
They have enough homes lined up for the puppies they expect in a litter, which means they rarely have "extra" puppies.
Responsible breeders screen those potential homes, to ensure suitability, and the safety and happiness of the puppy.
Responsible breeders sell their puppies on contracts that require, among other things, that a puppy sold as a pet is speutered by a certain age, and that if at any time in the dog's life the new family cannot or do not want to keep it, it is returned to the breeder and never surrendered to a shelter or rescue. A responsible breeder takes responsibility for every puppy bred for its entire life.
Because of the costs of competing, health screening, pre-natal care for the mom, keeping the puppies until they are, depending on breed, 8-12 weeks old rather than rushing them out the door as soon as they're weaned, being able to provide for potential returned dogs, and the small number of litters produced, responsible breeders at best break even. They do not turn a profit--and that by the hard test of the IRS, which would love to tax them on any profits they did make.
Responsible breeders aren't businesspeople; they're people with an expensive hobby.
You want an example? Addy was sold originally as a show quality puppy. She didn't mature into a show quality dog, and her buyer returned her to her breeder. The breeder, unhappy with the condition Addy was in (untrained, ungroomed, and underweight), chose to return the buyer's money rather than give her a replacement puppy. She then rehomed Addy to me for the cost of transporting her back from the original buyer to the breeder--so that she could refund that money, also, to the original buyer.
So what did Addy's breeder make from Addy? An $1800 loss, as far as I can see.
Oh, and the contract I got Addy on, for transportation costs, still has that return clause in it, and requires me to provide pictures of Addy to the breeder on a regular basis. So that she can see that Addy is being cared for properly.
There's no question that show breeders love the prestige of breeding a great dog, but responsible breeders, show, field trial, obedience, agility, whatever, aren't in it for the money, or at the expense of the dogs. That's what "responsible" means--that they take responsibility. | | | | |
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