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Proin--Killer of Dogs

This forum is for dog lovers seeking everyday advice and suggestions on health-related issues. Remember, however, that advice on a public forum simply can't be a substitute for proper medical attention. Only your vet can say assuredly what is best for your dog.

  
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Radley

Im a lean, mean,- cuddling machine
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 2, '10 1:44pm PST 
I agree with Leah. I haven't been in the veterinary field for nearly as long as her owner has but I have never seen any dogs with ill effects from this drug. This drug is prescribed to quite a few dogs at my work and it normally does more good then anything else.
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Thu Sep 2, '10 4:02pm PST 
Thanks, Leah. I totally agree with you that every drug has side effect, and you can't live in fear of that. That being said- I started Sarah on the drug last night. I have noticed that she is acting very afraid in the house. Last night she went in her crate and sat there trembling. Did not come out for over an hour. Now today, she was great outside but when we got home she was scared again. She is desperate to be outside, but doesn't pee, she just doesn't want to be inside. When she is inside, she's crawling around on her belly, tail tucked, licking, looking away, just very afraid. Could this be a side effect of the meds or is she afraid of something else?
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Fritz

Fritz, cats are- fun when they- run
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 3, '10 9:37am PST 
Thank you Leah,
What does this mean for those of us using Prion? I take 25mg twice a day (50mg a day) and have no noticeable side effects.

Are there tests or precautions I should be taking? I get upset when I leak on myself even though my person would put up with it for me.
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Leah, CGC

All the Beauty- with none of the- Brains
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 3, '10 10:22am PST 
Fritz, In your case I would most likely continue using the drug because the small risk of stroke outweighs my dogs obvious "depression" associated with wetting herself. Honestly there are numerous pets who become withdrawn and have major personality changes associated with incontinence and I would rather risk the very small chance of stroke then watch my dog emotionally deteriorate but this is my own feeling. From previous post I think you would also agree with me.

Butters: PPA/Proin needs to be given every dose. If you skip doses the effects lessen so make sure your father is actually giving every dose at the same time as this will help with efficacy.
PPA works by releasing norepinephrine in the brain. If the body "runs" out or stops making as much then the body appears to "build up a resistance" to the drug when really it is just unable to work correctly because it has run out of norepinephrine to use. Usually this is on a long term use basis which does not really fit with your fathers dogs case.
Also sometimes the original dosing needs some tweeking. I would ensure the medication is being given properly then discuss with the vet either an increase or the addition of a hormone called DES if necc. Also you should rule out secondary infection (UTI) because dogs who are incontinent are prone to urinary tract infections. Have them do a sterile urine culture since some bacteria can be low grade and doesn't appear on a standard urinalysis.
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Sarah,- CW-SR,- CW-G1, CGC

Million Dollar- Mutt
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 3, '10 5:53pm PST 
Well- the peeing was getting worse, so I called and brought in another urine sample. This time they did find white blood cells in the urine, so are treating her for an infection. She is on Baytril (antibiotic) and metacam (anti-inflammatory). They are keeping her on the Proin for now, although I really think that it came on SO fast it would be more likely an infection, just one that didn't show up on the first urinalysis. It seems as though she was acting upset because she had peed in the house, that or she was smelling the cleaner I used and she was feeling bad. I have NEVER punished her for peeing in the house, but I don't know what her first owners did while housetraining. Really hoping the new drugs solve our problem it was very distressing changing my sheets 3 times last night from her peeing.
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Sabrina

American Bully- Love
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 3, '10 11:56pm PST 
typed in the link in the address bar and it didn't work.can someone please send me the correct link?please & thank youblue dog
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Fritz

Fritz, cats are- fun when they- run
 
 
Barked: Sat Sep 4, '10 7:33am PST 
Thanks Leah, Fritz does get upset and distressed when he wakes up with a wet tummy. My vet said about the same thing, the risk of the prion is out weighted by Fritz disgust at getting wet. (Fritz has been carefully checked for infection/medical causes for his incontinence. )

He seems fine and I keep him on the lowest possible dose that still works. What are the symptoms of stroke in a dog? I am thinking unsteady gait, maybe personality changes.

Thanks again.

Fritz and Betty
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Radley

Im a lean, mean,- cuddling machine
 
 
Barked: Sun Sep 5, '10 7:21am PST 
A stroke in a dog can cause a number of side effects. My scottish terrier I had growing up had a stroke and he started walking in circles, completely incoherent. Ive seen some dogs with twitches but they normally walk strangely and are very wobbly in my experiences.
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Leah, CGC

All the Beauty- with none of the- Brains
 
 
Barked: Sun Sep 5, '10 9:41am PST 
Sabrina: The correct link is linked in my first post (three down from the original post)

Fritz: It was thought for many years that dogs don't actually suffer from strokes the same way humans do. Many times ODVD (old dog vestibular disease) was misdiagnosed or misrepresented as a stroke so people assumed that "real" strokes were not possible in dogs. Recent medical break throughs have proved that dogs are capable of having a "real" stroke.

ODVD symptoms are severe head tilt, circling, facial paralysis, inability to stand, ataxia (unsteady gait) and severe naseau. This disease is due to a problem with the dogs vestibular (inner ear or balance center).

A stroke is defined by an interuption of blood supply to any part of the brain. It can be caused by clots or sometimes by heamorghing blood vessels causing blood to pool around brain instead of entering brain. The type of stroke PPA is thought to cause in people in hemorrhagic stroke. This is the type of stroke that occurs when you bleed into your brain. The risk is very low and was only associated in increasing this type of stroke in 18-49 yr olds NOT in anyone else. Also the women in this study were taking PPA as an appetite suppresant (diet pill). The dose of PPA in those medications is almost 3x what is present in the PPA we use on our animals for sphyncter control. This may or may not be reason enough for us NOT to see strokes as commonly in animals.

In dogs we see strokes or what we usually call cerebro vascular accident (CVA) or a transient ischemic attack (TIA). They can lead to irreversible brain damage. Strokes are either caused by head injury (fall, HBC, other trauma), bleeding into the brain (usually from a clotting disorder or ruptured vessels), or from lack of blood or oxygen in the brain (this can be from trauma like choking or stranguling or from being drown or losing conciousness).
In the case of PPA we can assume the stroke is caused by the burst blood vessels which is what was seen in humans.
Symptoms of this type of stroke are facial paraylisis, blind in one eye, head tilt, collapse, lethargy, "senile" type symptoms and death.

In my best medical opinion I just don't see this PPA risk being one to lose to much sleep over. There have been no studies linking this risk to animals and the dosing is different than in the human studies.

At this point each patients risk should be weighed against the benefits of the medication. Strokes are very very rare in dogs and usually trauma or medically (diabetes, heart disease) induced NOT medication induced.
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Fritz

Fritz, cats are- fun when they- run
 
 
Barked: Sun Sep 5, '10 8:25pm PST 
Thanks again Leah,

I don't know where you find the energy to put our minds at rest by sharing your experience, but I am glad you do.

hug
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