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This forum is for dog lovers seeking everyday advice and suggestions on health-related issues. Remember, however, that advice on a public forum simply can't be a substitute for proper medical attention. Only your vet can say assuredly what is best for your dog. Don't furget to check out Dogster's Dog Care Guide Book for information about caring for the health of your dog!
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Ruya
Queen of All She- Surveys |
 | | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 5:09am PST | |  | |  | | Hi Addy,
You write:"Ruya, it's leaving that drive intact with the intention of frustrating it every single time that I described as cruel. "
Okay, I understand where you're coming from. Thank you for your response. 
Proper training and proper management can normally avoid their getting into the road or fighting with each other, and they don't have any free-floating drive to do those two things in the absence of specific triggers.
The latter part of that compound statement has some problems. From our rescue and 'out in the wild' mentoring experiences, this isn't necessarily true. Innate breed character (and/or lack of breed identity and conflicting behavioral QTLs), lack of a job to do, as well as decisions made which produce unintentional effect upon anxiety (as previously cited) can contribute to create self fulfilling destructive problems. Inspite of that, we have sometimes found that mixed breeds (as one example) seem to be in vogue. 
The urge to mate is far more powerful and intense than any of the other urges you mention. They'll even pass up food to find a mate.
I'm not in the position to disagree that your personal experiences have dictated that animal mating drives have reached that level of challenge for you. Or if you have merely chosen to buy that packaged philosophy. I don't find that the mating drive surpasses all others nor is it tangible that a dog feels that it is singularly and uniquely cruel. This is a personal perception.
Dogs will pass up food for other things and can even eventually die of grief and progressively failing health upon the loss of a dear companion.
I have had several intact dogs (males and females) as service dogs and being intact did not create more stress for them although when females are in heat, I opted to use the males for public work. Giving the boy a job to do makes for a happy dog. My females seem unconcerned.
I have actually observed much more in the way of daily unsettled behavior and reactive activity in neutered service animals belonging to others, than in any of my own. I didn't initially understand why this was so l but now that I have studied it, I have greater perspective of this issue.
A female in heat desperately wants to mate, and that drive is satisfied only by mating. A male who scents a female in heat is driven to reach her and mate with her, and will seek to (and often succeed, if there hasn't been sufficient forethought by the humans) overcome or destroy any barriers between him and that female in heat.
Now, there's food for thought!
In the decades that I have kept critters - from horses, other livestock, cats and dogs (dogs were almost never neutered when I lived overseas) I think only the cats knew about the above paragraph!! As a child I remember struggling to save enough yen to get my Siamese cat spayed.
With all unneutered animals... training, management and perhaps something of an ability to really read/understand and work with an animal are all quite helpful with the other species. Cats, on the other hand... really are from another planet that way.  But there are actually people who are able to keep them intact (with no unexpected kittens) and stay sane. This is where I fail!  Every one of my cats, all through my life, including barn cats have always been neutered.
It's a mistake to attribute human feelings on the matter to dogs. When we keep intact a dog that we never intend to allow to mate, that's neither kind nor "natural.
That could be a general statement otherwise, I am not sure where you are getting the notion I am promoting 'natural'. I merely cited several studies and the issue of cultural attitudes. I never once said 'do the natural thing'. 
Dogster is not an academic forum but it is a social place. Similar to Yahoo Answers and other social networks, Dogster has a unique character of its own. But like the other forums, it might be the only place a pet owner goes to get the most basic information about breeding. And how scary is that?! 
Speaking from a medical background where patients should be informed about procedures, I feel that if they want information about neutering, they do deserve a balance of information. And a gentle nudge to make the right choice.
Thanks for your comments!  Edited by author Sun Jul 8, '07 5:25am PST
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 6:07am PST | | | | | | Firefly:
you said 'No-show breeding females should be spayed'
whatever you meant by that statement (i.e. show breeding females should NOT be spayed might be interpreted from what you said)
I wonder:
did you know that a 'show bred female & male' can have pups that aren't to the standard for show and would/should (whatever) be placed in 'pet homes' ?
did you know that 'no-show females & males can be evaluated for show potential, never show, and have many strong assets to the breed and a 'paring' can produce 'show quality' pups? | | | | |
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Ruya
Queen of All She- Surveys |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 7:14am PST | | | | | | As to neutering animals not used for showing, this can be extreme and wrong.
I posted earlier a genetic study by Dr Serpell showing what happened in one breed when dogs were bred and chosen for their color. You would have to read the study and understand the genetics of color in order to assimilate what happened. (this was the ECS study in this thread)
Let's take for example a dog like the Bernese Mountain Dog. These dogs have gorgeous gorgeous markings and the puppies are just irresistible to the max! 
The Bernese has certain markings on its body, and sometimes the dogs with a crooked white blaze or slightly too much or too little white, are going to be overlooked due to their little flaw in the white marking.
Be realistic. Use genetics.
Those white markings are random. Just because a puppy has a slight mismark of color, many have been removed from breeding programs while the more perfectly marked puppy is chosen for competition. Now sometimes one individual that is kept turns out to have a flaw that doesn't turn up til later. What if this dog grows up and has cardiomyopathy. You can't tell this right away. It takes time. By the time you found out, you have painted yourself into your corner with a dog that really should not be bred. The dog with the crooked blaze that was too wide but had a perfect heart is now dead genetically. No it may still be a wonderful pet for some lucky person but the pup that really did have perfect genes is now removed from the genepool.
Because fashions dictate markings colors that will prevail for a while, a dangerous thing can happen if too many dogs are neutered for the wrong reasons.
If the breeder had kept the mismarked puppy and the fancy show dog. In the end, that fancy show dog might get neutered, and the one that could never have been shown to a win might be bred. The one that didn't win could be bred to another dog that had better markings and no heart issues, great hips, elbows and all those other things Bernese need to have checked for breeding decisions. There are no perfect dogs. There are no guarantees. Leave options open.
Genetics is not kind to those who do not study it. It is not kind to the breeds where breeders believe every dog must be a champ to be bred. Ethical breeders sometimes risk the scorn of their peers if they choose 'nonstandard' but healthy dogs being an insightful breeder can make one seem controversia. Being a good breeder isn't easy. | | | | |
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 9:53am PST | | | | | | Firfly...since your 'diary' is open for anyone to read, I wanted to point something out:
you said in your blog 7/7/07:
"I have indulged in arguing on the forums!Muahahaha! I can get a good one going too, just name the topic and place, and I'll be there, BOL!"
Take a look at the guidelines for forums, They aren't intended for
'arguing' by my interpretation.
So please, don't 'argue' for the sake of 'arguing'....and please don't assume a respondee is rude.....attacks with intent are not welcome on forums.
Use the forum to express your opinion(s), instead of using it to berate someone for their reply or for the sake of starting an argument. | | | | |
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 11:11am PST | | | | | | Firefly, my apologies regarding saying you stated someone is rude and calling names....I mistook your post with Aly's re: condescending etc. to the postee prior to him/her.
What I posted about arguing did apply to you and only as information regarding guidelines, also pointing out that your post in your diary that you 'argued' on the forum for what seemed to me to be just for the sake of arguing.....
Aly....please read the guidelines....a good rule of thumb: don't assume someone is condescending etc. even if you feel certain they are....'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' comes to mind....opinions re: the topic etc. is the purpose of a forums....not your opinion re: a postee's personality or intent of a post.
Enough said, I just wanted to clarify my previous posts.
Note: I am NOT expressing opinion re: either Firefly's nor Aly's personality. I am just pointing out the purpose of the Forums to hopefully help deter readers from starting 'dog fights' in the forums. | | | | |
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Rocco
Don't let things- bother you! |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 11:14am PST | | | | | | Ruya I just had to post about your last statement. I don't find that to hold up true in the boxer breed. Yes, flashy boxers tend to do better in the ring. That doesn't mean a classic would not be kept if it was a good example of the boxer. The dog may or may not do well in show because of its markings. Yet, boxer breeders have classic marked boxers that are bred because they exhibt the wanted qualities and are health certified too. Now, when selling comes to time classic boxers tend to be the ones sold for pet homes. These are companion pets and simply that and that is why they are on a spay and neuter contract. In breeding, you have to pick out the important attributes you wish to pass on to future generations. This doesn't mean to breed a poor representation of the breed simply because he is healthy. obviously, the not best marked dog needs to be of a highly decent representation of the breed. That is why it is important that a breeder know what he/she is doing and keep on top of what things are going on in their breed.
The statement on cardiomyopathy holds true to not just for the best marked dogs. It can happen to any dog. That is why it is important to health test and keep track on any diseases in a certain bloodline. It also helps to breed from older proven studs.
This doesn't mean all dogs should be unaltered just to leave options open as there are plenty of options as most breeders don't have the issue of being confined to using the one dog that may have been sick.
About the not need to neuter. Most people do not have the time or will or what not to have a job for their dog to do to keep their dogs self-fulfilled if possible. They are companions and not breeders. So there is no point in keeping a dog unaltered if it is meant to be a companion and not a stud. | | | | |
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Ruya
Queen of All She- Surveys |
| | Barked: Sun Jul 8, '07 1:43pm PST | | | | | | Hi Rocco, you wrote: Ruya I just had to post about your last statement. I don't find that to hold up true in the boxer breed. Yes, flashy boxers tend to do better in the ring. That doesn't mean a classic would not be kept if it was a good example of the boxer. The dog may or may not do well in show because of its markings.
No disagreement here. The white spotting pattern in Bernese has a different genetic mechanism than that in Boxers. The flashiness in Bernese is, I believe Irish spotting which homozygous in the breed as far as I know. (si symbol) Bernese are si-si
si doesn't happen in Boxers so you don't have a chance of getting a homozygous lineup.
To approximate that si-si tuxedo look, solids and extreme whites are combined. Classics are s-s. Extreme white spotted are sw-sw.
The goal is a Boxer with s-sw for flashiness.
Problem is, you can't get that combo consistently. Breed a dog with s-sw to s-sw, and you get some solids, some extreme whites, some flashies. Some of the extreme whites will be deaf. What would be idea is to have no more than one parent with the recessive for sw. But the way this works out is less than optimal.
I'm not even gonna try to make a punnet square here.
There are many sw breeds that do not have as much deafness. Great Pyrenees for example are homozygous sw-sw, but deafness is not common in the breed. Somewhere along the line, a protective allele was lost or some SNP gained that caused this predisposition which doesn't affect all other sw breeds.
Actually there was a paper on this very recently. A connection was found between the type of spotting Boxers have with a sort of transcription factor associated with deafness. Some other breeds tested didn't have the same 'fingerprint'.
Yet, boxer breeders have classic marked boxers that are bred because they exhibt the wanted qualities and are health certified too.
Yes, it is because they need the classics. It's in another way sort of like breeding chinese cresteds... you have to keep the fluffy ones in the bloodline. In boxers you need to keep the solid color.
You are right, that between boxers and bernese it is a very different situation with mismarks. I think however, the Bernese has more and a wider range of genetic problems. So white being in the wrong place when all other things are equal should not necessarily necessitate a cull. (neuter) although freezing semen on males isn't so bad.
White spotting pattern is associated in some breeds with defects in neurological development. Pigment in the developing fetus travels the with cells that will "seed" the nervous system with necessary germ cells. Pigment and neural cells then must migrate from the spinal area to the extremities and chest. If the Boxer has a spotting gene that codes for less spreading of pigment (and the nerve cells), the resulting puppy could be defective if the necessary nerves in the head don't get their nerve cells. Bad explanation but I've been working all day so my words are getting floppy.
Now, when selling comes to time classic boxers tend to be the ones sold for pet homes. These are companion pets and simply that and that is why they are on a spay and neuter contract. In breeding, you have to pick out the important attributes you wish to pass on to future generations. This doesn't mean to breed a poor representation of the breed simply because he is healthy. obviously, the not best marked dog needs to be of a highly decent representation of the breed. That is why it is important that a breeder know what he/she is doing and keep on top of what things are going on in their breed.
Yep, health testing means a lot in a healthy breeding system. Some people have a problem with the need to create so many deaf puppies just to make some pretty flashies. This isn't my area of focus in the original post however as it's too hot a territory for me and I haven't walked the walk there.
The statement on cardiomyopathy holds true to not just for the best marked dogs. It can happen to any dog. That is why it is important to health test and keep track on any diseases in a certain bloodline. It also helps to breed from older proven studs.
Yes, thank goodness for frozen semen, TCI and surgical implants! It must surely bring tears of joy to see healthy puppies sired by a long deceased much beloved sire --who was once the epitome of health and correct type in the breed.
Spendy tho. Very $pendy. But it can definitely be worth it.
This doesn't mean all dogs should be unaltered just to leave options open as there are plenty of options as most breeders don't have the issue of being confined to using the one dog that may have been sick.
Nah, no one needs all the dog genetics except for some very rare breeds or breeds that are in a very compromixing position. In some of those cases, the males are collected at an optimal age after tests and then neutered after sufficiently collected. They can then go to loving pet homes who otherwise wouldn't be able to handle a Mr Studmuffin.
About the not need to neuter. Most people do not have the time or will or what not to have a job for their dog to do to keep their dogs self-fulfilled if possible. They are companions and not breeders. So there is no point in keeping a dog unaltered if it is meant to be a companion and not a stud.
True. My emphasis is on educated choice.
EDIT: I forgot to add that the reason for my response originally was the fact that someone felt NON showing dogs didn't have use in a breeding program. I think we've addressed that now.  Edited by author Sun Jul 8, '07 1:53pm PST
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 12, '07 9:18am PST | | | | | | Here's an update (since the original post of the thread was about dealing with heats)....
Watch out for the female!!!
Nikki was doing well the first 11 days and now she won't eat, is constantly pulling off whatever gizmos I come up with to keep a pad or pullup on for the bleeding. She is constantly after Irie and licking his 'member' then positioning herself to mate. Irie (of course) has tried to mount her on a few of these occasions so I'm still very vigilent in watching them when they are together to eat, play, and walk.
No longer do I let them out on the run together. Nikki is freaking out about this. Irie doesn't seem to mind.
Soooo, that's the update. My advice: NEVER house an intact female with an intact male AND watch the female!!!
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Daisy's- pups!
558780 |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 12, '07 2:50pm PST | | | | | | Wow... this information is great, you are so right in the fact that a lot of people are not educated. I sure wasn't when my dog’s accidental pregnancy happened. I thought that because they were to young (not even 1 year old) when the girls' first heat happened and because the boy was too young too, plus they were siblings and she didn't seem interested at all that she wouldn't get pregnant and I still had time to get my male neutered later (before there second cycle). I WAS SO WRONG. I kept her on dippers the whole time (unless she was going to the bathroom) and I didn't even see it. My boyfriend finally confessed that he took them out to pee and took her dipper off and went to send an email, when he went to look for them in the kitchen, they were tied!... My vet actually said that since they were both so young, she was most likely not pregnant and since the tie only happened once, but we could get a pregnancy test after 20 days. We got it and it came back negative! until a few days when I started to feel the puppies moving in her wound... Oh... NO!... she was pregnant!, I couldn't believe it, well I sure learned my lesson, no matter how hard you try to keep them apart and no matter how old or young they are, no matter if they are related or not... dogs just don't care and their instincts to reproduce are very strong, they will find a way to reproduce. She had 4 puppies! amazing for a dog her size who was just tied once and was so young too. Now the little male is fixed and I sure learned that if you have 2 dogs of different sexes, even if they are different sizes, it could still happen, it's always best to spay and neuter at least one of them. If I would have had a better vet who gave me better advice, this would have never happened. Now I have the task to find these puppies great homes and raise them for 2 or 3 months, plus take care of any medical needs they might have (like it happened with little Simba), as a person you have to deal with the consequences of your decisions. I will make the new owners sign a contract where they will get these puppies spayed and neutered before they are a year old, since they are inbreed I sure don't want them reproducing and potentially having puppies with health problems... | | | | |
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 14, '07 6:31am PST | | | | | | Damn!!!
I am a very responsible person and have been VERY vigilant in making sure my 1 y.o. female boxer Nikki who is in heat doesn't get pregnant and ALL it took was a trip to the bathroom (after being away from home 8 hours without access to a bathroom) for her to pull off 3 layers of 'protection' and mate with my daughter's 2 y.o. male boxer Irie !!!
I am so very upset with myself !!!
Nikki was to be breed but not until she was 2 and health tested. Irie the same but not with Nikki until they had been evaluated as mates (his health testing is scheduled for the end of this month).
I'm entering this response to advise others that no matter how responsible and vigilant you are, dogs will breed in literally seconds and once they are 'tied' there is absolutely nothing you can do....except kick yourself for letting them out of their separate rooms because you felt bad they'd been alone all day AND not just peeing on the floor if you couldn't hold it long enough to take them out and separate them again.
Solutions?......morning after shot (with risks) which not all vets provide, OR having her spayed ASAP (before the embryos develop), OR whelp and raise pups that you may not be able to place because of the potential that they may not be healthy.
Responsibly I'd have to keep them and, if Irie is healthy, wait until Nickie has been health tested (best at 2 y.o.) so that if she passes also, I can certify the offspring as healthy before placement.
That means the pups could be nearly 1 y.o. before placement unless earlier health testing of Nikki is acceptable.
Because of not just peeing my pants or letting the dogs out of their rooms after I peed, I've got huge decisions to make.
Anyway....I swore I would NEVER have an oops and that people who do just aren't vigilant enough....shows you how wrong a judgemental person can be !!
Damn!!! | | | | |
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