My female isn't fixed and I don't intend for her to be bred. How do I deal with her heat(s)?

This forum is for dog lovers seeking everyday advice and suggestions on health-related issues. Remember, however, that advice on a public forum simply can't be a substitute for proper medical attention. Only your vet can say assuredly what is best for your dog.

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Rocco

Don't let things- bother you!

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:27am PST


	Rocky- As far as breeding goes personally, I do not find it a requirement that both sire and dam have championship titles. It can be difficult to have titles on both. As long you can have the dog evaluated by a few reputable breeders/judges that can give you an honest opinion on conformation and they can confirm how breeding quality than I do not see it an issue. Health is important and when I took a glance at Cavs a few months back I found out that they are "racked" with health issues. Obviously no dog is perfect. You have to pick out what is top priority and weigh the positive aspects. Yes, the inbreeding has led to a lot of problems and it can be hard to open a gene pool and control health, conformation, and temperment. It can be done but things must be weighed. Sometimes, people get to near sighted on having a popular sire or with champion papers and that is when gene pools become too close. They get too picky and wound up about bloodlines and breeding a show look that they have lost the balance. Some champions finish though they may not be the best specimens conformationally or health or temperment wise. It kind of reminds me of the boxer breed. A lot of this health testing is not necessarily new but being worked on. Breeders are seeing these issues and are bring it up. Some are importing lines, others breed not necessarily dogs that would win in shows but have other attributes to add to the breed. It's a science and a responsible breeder is always on top of it and trying hard to keep that balance! Firefly's mom- I am not patronizing you but want you to hear some words of advice. I believe you are 13. I hope that you take the time to research before you begin to breed. I thought that I knew a lot a 13 but I can tell you I have a totally new perspective on things. I've seen your responses in the food forum and the post you just made you seem really defensive about things if people try to teach you about things that go against what you are doing or think. A good breeder should always be open to suggestions and really investigate a claim. As you said in another post at 9 you didn't care about your dog and it ran away. At 12 you read books before you got Fly. You have plenty of years to learn and as you said in just those few years you changed but imagine what 5 more years would do. If breeding responsibly is important to you breeding can wait. It may be harder to start off on the right foot but its better than later having to learn you may have been wrong. I got Rocco when I was 8. I cared for him but like you said around 13 something changed and my love for dogs sprouted enormously. I studied and thought that I knew what was going on but now I have found I was off. You can get wrong advice. I thought I new what a responsible breeder was but really I have learned more now and will continue to learn what makes a true reputable breeder than what someone may claim. It takes years of study. I am in no way ready to breed. At first, I would get involved with a mentor off of your breed club site. Find out about what genetic issues are effecting the breed. I have nothing against responsible breeders and I feel that most dogsters are the same. It does matter when someone breeds there dog because it can effect others who have to suffer/feel the consequences of buying a sick dog or a rescuer/breed enthusist that has to sit by and watch as another said breed is euthanised do to lack of space.

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Ruya

Queen of All She- Surveys

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:53am PST


	good gosh, my last posting got mangled. I certainly didn't type all that over and over. Is there a way to delete it? Maybe forum admin could do that for me?

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Ruya

Queen of All She- Surveys

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:53am PST


	... clearing Edited by author Sat Jul 7, '07 8:06am PST

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Ruya

Queen of All She- Surveys

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:56am PST


	Here's a retry. I hope this one doesn't get mangled! This is really odd.. it's not a long post, but it keeps getting mangled. I'm going to break it into two smaller parts! ========= Addy wrote:> Hi Addy, I'm just adding support to Meridan's posting which offers (hopefully) responsible people ways to exercise their choice and surveillance. I didn't personally open the thread with the eye catching title it has. There are legit reasons many people in this thread may choose not to neuter. I am not assuming you have problem with that. But, snide? ouch! Okay... No offense intended nor taken Our perceptions are different. To me there is nothing condescending regarding pointing out similarities of two types of rapid turnover situations, both of which have NO long term follow-up of the animals they place (puppy mills vs rescue). Each is promoting a stance. Each promotes the idea that what they are doing or providing is healthy without without the benefit of said follow-up. A legitimate breeder would maintain follow-ups which would include health checks of the siblings in a litter for -- link removed -- , long term observation and any trending that seems to happen would be observed. Each puppy in a litter offers a genetically viable control against the rest of the litter. Unfortunately, breeders can only offer "case studies" based on their "annecdotal" information. Puppy mills and Human organizations/rescues do none of these studies, yet promote neutering as healthy. HSUS goes so far as to make gonadectomy seem like a panacea. ...... this part keeps getting repeated. hopefully it stops! Edited by author Sat Jul 7, '07 8:11am PST

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Ruya

Queen of All She- Surveys

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 8:16am PST


	okay, here's the rest. Hopefully no more mangles! The first posting have no author re-edit button, and none of the ones above do. I also do not know why the forum removed a link to the Orthopedic Foundation of Animals. I was pointing to Rhonda Hovan's excellent article on using Pedigree Depth at offa.org / hovanart . pdf. Here's the intended paragraph! if the link works this time A legitimate breeder would maintain follow-ups which would include health checks of the siblings in a litter for -- link removed -- , long term observation and any trending that seems to happen would be observed. Each puppy in a litter offers a genetically viable control against the rest of the litter. Unfortunately, breeders can only offer "case studies" based on their "annecdotal" information. Puppy mills and Human organizations/rescues do none of these studies, yet (the latter) promotes neutering as healthy. ----- cont'd HSUS goes so far as to make gonadectomy seem like a panacea. To contrast to that lack of follow-up, I gave visual aids from peer reviewed studies that differed from rescue and puppy mills because they involved followups, controls; they followed bloodlines, breeds, pedigrees and -- link removed -- between neutered and unneutered animals. Here's a chart showing that neuters were significantly more reactive. If these charts are indeed depict neutering _advantages_ to some people, then that's fine with me. My posting is about having choice in options and having the information to make those choices. A good source of more information is -- link removed -- . Information on "Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering" and alternatives to disrupting grow hormones and other elements of endocrinology are included on the Science link and elsewhere. When I point out a general European point of view, I didn't say they were better. I intended to point out that common perceptions stateside are different and likely primarily because of the one sided acceptance of flow of information. On your last comment... "Aside from anything else, give how powerful a female dog's drive to mate is when she's in heat, what kind of cruelty does it take to subject her to that, as often as twice a year, when you intend to never allow her to satisfy that drive?" Okay, here... I'm not sure what this thread has to do with satisfying a female dog's (or a males?) powerful drive or being defined as cruel. Dogs love to chew, chase, eat, dig, mangle things which are not intended for them. They will fight with each other or get into the road as well if improperly managed. My objective is to support owners that want a responsible choice and to point out that the bias against their choices has been supported with an uneven hand. ===== I hope it worked this time. LOL Edited by author Sat Jul 7, '07 8:30am PST

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chinagirl

cutiepie china- babe

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 8:57am PST


	if not breeding get her spayed it not healthy for her . lots of luck

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Charlie

Chuckie

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 9:27am PST


	You need to get her spayed!!!!!!!!!!! There is NO good reason to let a dog remain intact if you aren't breeding the dog. And this world doesn't need any more hobby breeders anyway. I am blunt because I see the number of discarded animals who are tossed aside like so much garbage every day. PLEASE, get your dog spayed/neutered. PERIOD.

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Ruya

Queen of All She- Surveys

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 9:57am PST


	Rocky writes: "Cavaliers, as well, cannot be bred until after they are 30 months . . . that is if the breeder is following protocol. Most, even the top show breeders at Westminster, are not." Rocky, I'm not familiar with the Cavalier's code of ethics, so I had to look it up. And I think that it is not written with care for genetic diversity. http://ackcsc.org/ethics.htm I'm not surprised then on this comment of yours, and I agree: "I find the show community has been quite rocked by the geneticists finding that all the linebreeding they have done has produced the problems, and many are sticking their heads in the sand waiting for a DNA fix, but continuing to ignore geneticist's breeding recommendations." I agree, this is so wrong. I personally have a huge database with thousands of dogs in my breed, tracking the majority to country of origin and it really does take some knowledge of the limited numbers in a breed's foundation to help structure a better plan for the breed. Unfortunately, show registries such as AKC are closed ones, and founding members of the clubs tend to be quite resistant to change. The popularity of flashy boxers and the genetic issues that it prolongs is also a problem. I'm not "antiAKC" nor "AntiShow". I tend to be willing to point out problems with assumptions and point out the need for better perspective. The spay neuter thing of this thread also plays havoc with elements of genetic diversity. Several of my dogs have been champions but my breed is rather new to AKC and many of the foundation dogs have been LOCKED out of the AKC studbook for little more than personal vendettas between dog importers. Country of origin does not have a kennel club. So I'm in a very unique position regarding my critical analysis of what is accepted as status quo. What is the average COI in the Cavaliers in the US? The fact that you are suggesting that Cavaliers have a significant number of problems (they are a modern and refined breed, so that tends to follow) and the closed genepool and the forced spay and neutering is sad. I think there are many reasons that dogs should be raised to near middle age before neutering. This helps unmask many issues. Breeders do sometimes neuter mismarks for such things as white markings in the wrong place, and in a genetically compromised breed, eliminating mismarks for minor white spotting issues is suicide to the genepool. Mandatory health testing is more useful than mandatory neutering if we want to preserve a breed. I so agree with Bet Hargreaves! "Is this now the time for Cavalier breeders, for the future of the breed, to bite the bullet in order to widen the genetic pool of Cavaliers and start using Cavaliers for breeding that are not winning in the Show Ring?" Rocky wrote: "And since I've seriously taken this thread off topic, for any readers following, I feel this is the kind of knowledge you do need to delve into before you even contemplate breeding a dog. Physically even being capable of ensuring your in heat female isn't bred is just the beginning." Rocky, I'm sure that there are forums where people do have a genetics background and can help you. I do not believe that everyone on Dogster is standing around with scapels to neuter every dog. Some of dogsters I am sure are aware of the serious issues that some breeds face. There is a serious Yahoo genetic forum you can write to me about. It is all breed so the Tower of Babel in breed terms is alive and well, yet it is refreshing if you can keep up with the volume of mail. The topics are diverse and include behavioral, structural, immunological and other issues in breeds. Some of the posters are at different levels of being 'purist' on diversity, most are closer to middle road. In order to join it, you have to use a real (no yahoo) email address. It is a list that has had such members as John Cargill (deceased), Bruce Cattanach, John Burchard and others. Mostly it is in support of the late Dr John Armstrong's work in Canine diversity studies. Wishing you the best! Sorry for my dry and odd posts. Please remember we cannot all think alike. Practical and applied genetics is part of the spay/neuter issue and keeping our dogs healthy.

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Rocky

Got Food?

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 1:08pm PST


	Carmella (gotta love that name!), I believe your vet has given you very good advice as to waiting for after the first heat if your puppy already has a problem with vaginitis, as long as you are capable of watching she is not bred. First heats can happen from 5 months through to as late as 18 months, but on average they happen at 7-9 months of age. Sometimes it is very, very hard to detect a first heat if no blood is involved, but usually there is at least a small amount. The most easy to read sign is a males reaction around a female in heat, even the neutered males! Licking female parts more excessively than usual is a sign, as well as a bit of a mood change. Some females will get clingy. Others with get grumpy. Most will ask to go outside a lot more, (just to check for prospective mates I presume). As well please be sure to wait a couple of months after the heat is done before spaying. It will take that long for Carmella's hormones to settle, and spaying while a females hormones are awry is hard on her. Ruya, from what I can find on a 5 gen pedigree the Cavaliers COI is just higher than the Sheltie breed at 4.21. However, there was such a small founding group that when you go back 10 or 15 gens you end up with many inbreeding coefficients in the 20's and higher. I will p-mail you about the forum you mentioned. Thank you

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Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!

Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:21pm PST


	Okay, here... I'm not sure what this thread has to do with satisfying a female dog's (or a males?) powerful drive or being defined as cruel. Dogs love to chew, chase, eat, dig, mangle things which are not intended for them. They will fight with each other or get into the road as well if improperly managed. Ruya, it's leaving that drive intact with the intention of frustrating it every single time that I described as cruel. Dogs' impulses to chew, chase, eat, dig, etc., can be satisfied with appropriate objects or redirected in useful ways that fulfill the dog. Proper training and proper management can normally avoid their getting into the road or fighting with each other, and they don't have any free-floating drive to do those two things in the absence of specific triggers. A dog isn't unhappy because it never has the "opportunity" to get into a serious I-want-to-kill-you fight with another dog, or to run into the road and get hit by a car. The urge to mate is far more powerful and intense than any of the other urges you mention. They'll even pass up food to find a mate. A female in heat desperately wants to mate, and that drive is satisfied only by mating. A male who scents a female in heat is driven to reach her and mate with her, and will seek to (and often succeed, if there hasn't been sufficient forethought by the humans) overcome or destroy any barriers between him and that female in heat. Humans are different from most other mammals in this area, and it's a mistake to attribute human feelings on the matter to dogs. When we keep intact a dog that we never intend to allow to mate, that's neither kind nor "natural." Edited by author Sat Jul 7, '07 7:23pm PST

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My female isn't fixed and I don't intend for her to be bred. How do I deal with her heat(s)?

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My female isn't fixed and I don't intend for her to be bred. How do I deal with her heat(s)?

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