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This forum is for dog lovers seeking everyday advice and suggestions on health-related issues. Remember, however, that advice on a public forum simply can't be a substitute for proper medical attention. Only your vet can say assuredly what is best for your dog. Don't furget to check out Dogster's Dog Care Guide Book for information about caring for the health of your dog!
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Nikki aka- 'Eyes to the- Soul'
hey Irie, wasn't- that MY toy?? |
 | | Barked: Thu Jul 5, '07 3:07pm PST | |  | |  | | Why should anyone mind?? 
You have a question, that's what forums are for 
It's obvious that you've done research and have resources for your planned breeding. As far as holding titles...the title isn't as important as the quality and health of the dog. If both are healthy, have good temperments are in line with the physical standards of the breed then who needs a title? A title shows mostly that the dog is quality AND has been shown. If they obtain confirmation and go on to obtain a champion title then they are of great quality but they might still have something negative in their lineage in order to mate with the sire or dam intended (i.e. shared lineage among other things).
I'm certain their are show dog owners and handlers that would disagree with me BUT please don't blast me for my humble opinion.
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Zeus
The perfect- gentleman.
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| | Barked: Thu Jul 5, '07 5:58pm PST | | | | | | Rocky, something in specific I was looking for in my search for a breeder to provide me with my next show Bullmastiff (female, I am 70% certian I will never breed, as I have no desire to) was that they not only had the one breeding pair that I wanted finished champions, but that all of their other breeding dogs were also finished champions. I think it's very important in my breed that the dogs be proven to be of quality, as anybody can say their dogs are quality, but this is a sure-fire way to prove it. (However, I have found gobs upon gobs of Champions that I do not care for the look of at all.) I turned my nose up to any that didn't meet that critera, and any that breed their bitches under 3 years of age.
I am only familiar in the Bullmastiff and in the French Bulldog world. (Which the above is also important to me when the time comes for us to bring in a Frenchie.) Any other breeds I am totally ignorant to, however.
Not only was I looking for the above, but I was also looking for a sire/dam that had done well in the National Specialty shows, the dogs were all well known for exceptional temperment in the breed, had a small number of dogs so they could focus mainly on those dogs (my breeder, though extremely well known in the breed, only has a male a female, and decided to keep a puppy from those 2 dogs' first breeding), the breeder was involved in both the National breed club, and regional breed clubs and the breeder was somebody I could get along with, work with and come to an understanding with. (If you can't tell, I'm picky. And I need somebody to balance myself out. I am wound very tight, and the breeder I have chosen is so lax and relax. It's wonderful. We make quite the combination.)
Beyond anything, what drew me to this breeder?
Was the moment he said, "Brit, I don't care if you show her and finish her. If you breed her afterwards? Fine by me. I trust you. If you don't? Wonderful too. All I want from you is to promise me you will provide her with the best home and life possible."
I was hooked. | | | | |
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Rocky
Got Food? |
| | Barked: Thu Jul 5, '07 6:22pm PST | | | | | | Zeus, I am wound real tight about the breeders I deal with as well. Most don't make me happy. I am working with a breed though, that has some very serious genetic difficulties in it, and want the breeders I deal with to be as concientious about health as about "show" and that has been hard to find.
Cavaliers, as well, cannot be bred until after they are 30 months . . . that is if the breeder is following protocol. Most, even the top show breeders at Westminster, are not.
I find the show community has been quite rocked by the geneticists finding that all the linebreeding they have done has produced the problems, and many are sticking their heads in the sand waiting for a DNA fix, but continuing to ignore geneticist's breeding recommendations.
I am putting a lot less stock in "show" lineage at this moment, as I am disappointed that so many do not evenly weigh looks/temperament/health. You can guess the one they are most focused on.
Bet Hargreaves, a champion of the Cavalier breed for many, many years, has put this so well.
"Is this now the time for Cavalier breeders, for the future of the breed, to bite the bullet in order to widen the genetic pool of Cavaliers and start using Cavaliers for breeding that are not winning in the Show Ring?"
When I read in forums and hear others demanding a title on both sire and dam I consider that it does not take a champion to produce a champion. That kind of thinking has brought Cavaliers to a genetic tipping point they may not recover from. Breeders worth their salt will know if their dog has traits that they can match to another, even if one doesn't have a title.
And since I've seriously taken this thread off topic, for any readers following, I feel this is the kind of knowledge you do need to delve into before you even contemplate breeding a dog. Physically even being capable of ensuring your in heat female isn't bred is just the beginning.
Meridian, this topic and your original post are greatly appreciated. | | | | |
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Zeus
The perfect- gentleman.
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| | Barked: Thu Jul 5, '07 6:47pm PST | | | | | | That they are, Meridian! I forgot to compliment you on your post! 
Rocky, I find that Bullmastiff people these days are very very poor @ keeping to the standard, since it has evolved so much over the years. I am an "old-school" lover. I love the short, stocky, muscular, more of-substance dog. The Bullmastiff is supposed to be "a perfect square". And I see so many dogs that are tall and lanky these days? It makes me sick. So again, finding the "look" which is "old-school" I am looking for was difficult on top of all of my other wants.
Grace was sold for show, but she evolved to be WAY too small and I think we knew that from the beginning, so we spayed her before her first heat. (She's 76 pounds, and 22". Should be 100-110 pounds and 26"!) I really think she would have been happier showing herself off in the ring, but things didn't go that way. (And her "breeder" has never let me forget how I "ruined" Grace by spaying her, and telling me she should have kept her and never sold her.)
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who is wrapped so tightly. (I must say, I'm totally lax about everything else. Why this breed drives me to these fits of perfection, I don't know. )
I had no idea Cavaliers had such health problems? What are they? My Grandmother has 2! (Used to have 3, before the coyote...) Maybe we should take this converstaion to p-mail. Sorry, Meridian. | | | | |
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Carmy
You know you- love me!!! |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 6, '07 1:51pm PST | | | | | | Hi all-- great posts and responses!! I read them all-- and have a really important question. Carmella is 7 months old- and is not fixed yet. She has health problems (puppy vaginitis) that keeps reoccuring since the age of 3 months. She would go on antibotics- it would clear up-- but within a week or some come right back- and then she got a minor UTI. The vet said waiting until her first heat is best because it would "flush" out her system and hopefully put an end to the vagnitis. I was against it at first hoping for a different option-- but this vet was my second opinion vet- and she said the same thing. Anyway- I am not familiar with the heat process what so ever- but have been doing a lot of reading about it. I feel almost stupid that I took her heat cycle so lightly.. I had no idea dogs would go to such lengths to mate-- and she has been showing signs-- licking down there.. she has also shown some irritability. No blood- what are other signs? Is 7 months around the age they go into heat? When can i get her spayed after that? What should I be looking for? What can i do to make her more comfortable? I bought doggie diapers- but that is really it. You advice and posts are very appreciated- I dont know what I would do without all you dogster loveleys!! | | | | |
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Firefly
Lighting up my- mom's heart.... |
| | Barked: Fri Jul 6, '07 3:11pm PST | | | | | | Firefly's first heat was two months back, and we intend to breed her to a stud for AKC puppies, since we are becoming a kennel pretty soon(Celestial Moonshadow Shetland Sheepdogs). I think it is great to educate people who don't want to breed their female, but don't want them spayed.
No-show breeding females should be spayed, it helps prevent an unwanted litter. I take precautions with Firefly, always watching her(we have a male dog who is getting neutered soon) when she goes outside, in a petstore, or park(not a dog park). Her breeders said the Sheltie litter had great tempermental quality, and a Sheltie breeder of 25 years said she had a good chance in a show ring(she is taking classes in Nov.).
Also spaying the female is good, since it reduces(but doesn't prevent) ovarian cancer, uterine cancer, and breast cancer and lumps in the mammary glands. I checked Firefly's genetic scale to see that other birth defects didn't run within her family. I like to keep her seperate from males when she is in heat, I don't want a big dog like a lab per-say getting her bred; the pups could kill her being too big.
Alot of my friends won't neuter their males, and they don't keep them penned either, so I have to shoot firecrackers at males lingering in front of the porch(I don't through firecrackers at them but at a distance) so Firefly doesn't have a pre-marrital romp with her romancer.
ALSO: I do not wish to be patronized about breeding my female, that arguement is not where I'm going to be. It doesn't matter if someone breeds their dogs for purebred pups, it is none of our business and I don't care what people have against breeders, I wish to promote healthy litters by developing a distinct line of puppies, carefully selecting a Champion sire from the Pet Lodge resort in Clinton, TN. And I checked with the owners and they gave me a copy of his genetics blood tests that they had done at a Genetics Clinic.I will go about my business, we are talking about spaying, not breeders and what they do. Just saying, I have had alot of heated arguements this past week...
Just remember my vet's catchy jingle:
PREVENT A LITTER, FIX YOUR CRITTEREdited by author Fri Jul 6, '07 3:18pm PST
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Ruya
Queen of All She- Surveys |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 2:28am PST | | | | | | I see a lot of commentary here that promotes surgery for the convenience of a human owning an animal. And the usual "Animal Rights" spiel of how it is healthier for the dog.
This posting is not intended to discourage responsible spaying and neutering of pets, but is intended to shed more light on the subject.
Discussion:
* Many studies are not long term studies.
* Organizations like rescues do not operate like responsible breeders.
** They do not have controls populations of unneutered animals and the siblings of the same to academically compare how these animals fare for their entire lives.
Elements of ethics...
Like puppy mills, humane societies pump out the rescues and place them into homes as quickly as possible. (yes they have different purposes but observe...)
And...Like puppy mills which claim their animals are healthy and which also do not involve themselves with genetic testing nor with following their placements for LIFE, Humane Societies are so bold as to promote that neutering is safe (without long term follow up)and they also do not involve themselves with genetic testing.
Both are into rapid turnover for different reasons.
I'm not suggesting that shelters take on this expense of testing and long term followup, but I am saying that they are not putting proof to what they are saying about the safety of neutering. No different from unsubstantiated claims of a puppy mill.
Lack of follow up, no controls, and short term studies. The animal basically survives the surgery and gets placed. End of study. Convenience for the owner is emphasized. People adopting a rescue realize they are not getting a dog that was carefully bred for temperament nor for health testing or any other ability. So no one is being mislead, except for the promotion of neutering as safe and having more advantages than NOT neutering.
Later, when there are actually behavior or health problems, the owner is lead to believe that this is just a typical thing that happens to some owners. Unfortunately, such assumption can be misleading.
In contrast, see this rather happy, childish tone of promotion:
The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) on its website, says "Spaying or Neutering Is Good for You" (seriously, that's what it says!) and that "Spaying and neutering makes pets better, more affectionate companions.".
(source: HSUS)
My reaction to this is... Better? Better than what? More affectionate? Really?
"Stepford Pets" anyone?
Generally, the websites promoting this positive info on spay and neuter are rescues and well meaninged people. I also recommend neutering but I think people should be aware that long term studies are showing that it is turning out to be not what we think. I also have direct experience that all is not what I was originally lead to believe. I now have a much more conservative endorsement for spay and neuter. I'm also more of the opinion that if a person really needs that much convenience from ownership of a large dog for example, perhaps they are not the best type of home for a pet. On the other hand, I can understand neutering of cats for convenience! Their heats are more frequent, reproductive based behavior problems are more likely.
Now some studies... people can always come up with a study that proves anything they want. But if you actually read the studies and comprehend the limitations (not long term? limited population sample, study bias?, etc) you learn a lot more and it can get disturbing.
Case studies (individual experiences) are not accepted as the gold standard in scientific work. Neither are short term studies, which much of the spay/neuter endorsements are based on.
Reality...
These things have been studied formally and breeders do have case studies showing that of their breedings, the neutered dogs do not necessarily live longer, seem to be more prone to cancer, orthopedic problems, reactive temperament, endocrinology problems and other issues.
Chart showing significant differentials in cancer rates and neutering
Male and female [Rottweiler] dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact.
Vol. 11, 1434–1440, November 2002 Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention
Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman, Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters
More studies...
Image from: Groundbreaking study which showed a relationship between neutering and REACTIVE behavior in male dogs which was not anticipated and suggested further research. Which research was done, and by different groups as well, including guide and service dog organizations such as Canine Companions for Independence, and by breed clubs.
Here's another...Female dog issues too!
Download copy of above 1996 study by-
James A. Serpell Ph.D.
current/recent credentials---
Section Chief, Behavior and Human-Animal Interactions
Professor of Humane Ethics and Animal Welfare
Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society
Department of Clinical Studies -Philadelphia
School of Veterinary Medicine
University of Pennsylvania
That is a long list of credentials. James A Serpell, PhD. has work that has been published in peer reviewed journals, including the one above dated from the late 1980's up to the current time.
I have been in communication with Dr Serpell regarding genetic and behavior issues, as well as this very subject of spaying and neutering, especially when done early. The service dog organizations were able to compare life trends in siblings that were neutered at different ages and what they found disturbed them so much, they have opted to neuter later. Dr Serpell is familiar with their studies. Last year he and associates attended an international conference regarding issues of neuter and spaying. They brought along their studies and audio visuals. He has given me permission to capture images from the studies for educational purpose and lobbying for issues in animal car.
Here are images from the 2006 with a different and wider population base which confirm Serpell's 1996 study above:
Comparison of sensitivity of neuter vs unneutered dogs
See also:
Spayed females vs unspayed
Pictures are interesting...
If you want more, you can download the slideshows of the study showing effects on behavior, urogenital health/incontinence, and other issues of health here. Lots of images and charts to be seen.
A significant collection of abstracts on spay/neuter and other important bill related issues can be found at http://www.ab1634.com/
In many countries in Europe, people are just amazed at the American propensity to widely endorse surgical procedures such as this surgical "Stepford Wife" treatment of a pet to make care more "convenient". Americans are increasing used to forcing things (including imposing regulations) to force fit issues into their lifestyles rather than adapting their lifestyles to accomodate as needed.
This is a cultural thing and is not so much part of my argument other than the fact that once fully immersed and brainwashed, people really don't see how what they are doing is odd or abhorrent to others.
Neuter and spaying is a mantra here. Much of this does have to do with the wide differences in animal care philosophies of our diverse population.
I definitely agree with the general tone that people who need the convenience of spaying and neutering, should do so, but they should make themselves aware of the risks as well as alleged advantages. | | | | |
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Addy, CGC
Let's go for a- walk! |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 3:54am PST | | | | | | Ruya, I'm sure you could be more snide, condescending, and insulting if you just gave it a little effort.
The benefits of spaying/neutering are not "alleged"; they're quite real. Addy's not my first dog, I'm not five years old, I know how to read and how to do research, and I was for many years a medical librarian. The medical literature isn't foreign to me.
"Natural" is a fine value, but it's not a reason to refrain from medical procedures that make a real improvement in quality of life of the individual that undergoes the procedure. The health risks of being intact for dogs and cats include both males and females' powerful drive to get out and find a mate. This exposes them to all sorts of risks, and especially for males it's a major cause both of fights, and of getting hit by cars.
Yes, Europeans think we're uncultured and barbaric for having our animals neutered. They also think we're big meanies for keeping our cats inside. That's because they don't, apparently, understand that coyotes, wolves, bobcats, fishers, alligators, opossums, etc., are real and not just exciting characters in nature programming. (Heck, many of them probably think a fisher is a person with a fishing line.) Much of that wildlife is a potential threat to dogs roaming for mates, too.
There are risks to spaying/neutering. Any surgery has risks for potential complications. And there are some risks to not having those hormones in their systems, as well as benefits. But overall, considering all the evidence, a dog that's not intended to be bred is better off being spayed/neutered.
Aside from anything else, give how powerful a female dog's drive to mate is when she's in heat, what kind of cruelty does it take to subject her to that, as often as twice a year, when you intend to never allow her to satisfy that drive? | | | | |
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Ruya
Queen of All She- Surveys |
| | Barked: Sat Jul 7, '07 7:21am PST | | | | | | Addy wrote:>
Hi Addy, I'm just adding support to Meridan's posting which offers (hopefully) responsible people ways to exercise their choice and surveillance. I didn't personally open the thread with the eye catching title it has. 
There are legit reasons many people in this thread may choose not to neuter. I am not assuming you have problem with that.
 But, snide? ouch!
Okay... No offense intended nor taken 
Our perceptions are different. To me there is nothing condescending regarding pointing out similarities of two types of rapid turnover situations, both of which have NO long term follow-up of the animals they place (puppy mills vs rescue). Each is promoting a stance. Each promotes the idea that what they are doing or providing is healthy without without the benefit of said follow-up.
A legitimate breeder would maintain follow-ups which would include health checks of the siblings in a litter for genetic depth, long term observation and any trending that seems to happen would be observed. Each puppy in a litter offers a genetically viable control against the rest of the litter. Unfortunately, breeders can only offer "case studies" based on their "anecdotal" information. Puppy mills and Human organizations/rescues do none of these studies, yet promote neutering as healthy.
HSUS goes so far as to make gonadectomy seem like a panacea.
To contrast to that lack of follow-up, I gave visual aids from peer reviewed studies that differed from rescue and puppy mills because they involved followups, controls; they followed bloodlines, breeds, pedigrees and long term observation and any trending that seems to happen would be observed. Each puppy in a litter offers a genetically viable control against the rest of the litter. Unfortunately, breeders can only offer "case studies" based on their "annecdotal" information. Puppy mills and Human organizations/rescues do none of these studies, yet promote neutering as healthy.
Edited by author Sat Jul 7, '07 8:55am PST
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