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Suspicious Breeder Has an "I am A Responsible Breeder" Article on Dogster Mag

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 25, '13 12:20am PST 
Oh, my Lord, Guest, yes, that's much worse than the breeder we're talking about, and it's probably in comparison to embarrassingly bad mill outlets like this that he considers himself an "ethical breeder"!
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat May 25, '13 9:31am PST 
It is where you set the bar. You can judge breeders by considering the lowest of the low and aiming above that, or by considering the highest of the high and looking to achieve that. However, there are four minimum criteria - titling, health testing, speuter requirements and return clauses.

Some people, wanting only a pet, consider titling pointless or even icky. But they need to move away from those feelings enough to consider....is the breeder really devoting themselves to their breed? are they living in a bubble or are the willing to have an outside party look at their dog? are they aspiring to use quality animals? It doesn't have to be conformation - there are performance venues, temperament tests, and in replacement for titles work or uses the dog does. Just some sign of the breeder being willing to invest themselves in their dogs. People who are content to promote their dogs from the comfort of their livingroom and say "my dogs are great" are just soooo beneath efforts others make. You need to ask yourself why? Plenty of people here, pet owners, have rescue pets with titles. And a breeder can't be bothered? Really?

Health is a huge dividing line. There is no amount of testing that will guarantee you a healthy puppy. However, there are known problems within the breed that can be tested for, and that's a must. The breed wants/needs to keep those under control, and the breed has a high propensity for these problems...no brainer. Beyond this, though, this has become to me the single most important gauge through my years of mentorship, for I know that one thing tests can mean is that this dog you have invested all this time in with breeding plans now CANNOT be used. That willingness, to find out you cannot use your dog, is a huge indicator of breeding ethics.

Speuter contracts are an ethical reflection also. Breeders should have concern that dogs are not being bred by people who do not know what they are doing, and/or without the quality to be considered good prospects for breeding. Those that do seem good enough the breeder should either want to co-own or place with someone they know or can scrutinize. Obviously, as breeders they want to develop their line. The rest, however, are pets and the speuter contract shows some ethical insistence they not be bred. This is thwarting to BYB mentality, and does not add to the problems in S/R.

Return clauses indicate an interest in and dedication to a life they bring into the world, life long, and ensures they will not directly influence S/R numbers in any way.

There are plenty of other things to judge. This isn't "how to choose your breeder" near as much as it is exploring the bare minimum criteria, and why way to go Absence of any is one big ol' red flag.

In terms of the article, I am sure the dude loves his dogs, but he is TEXTBOOK BYB! He purchases his first breeder puppy and in LESS THAN TWO YEARS is planning litters. To make this all worse to me, multiple litters. Of COURSE he is writing these articles (already saying he ships anywhere) trying to develop a market for his puppies. Some person who can't yet have a market for his dogs, breeding not one but two litters? Using language to pull wool over some eyes....he is a breeder (not yet, really), he health tests (well, he hasn't yet), and then all the blah blah nonsense of faux noble reasons like service to the community the breed offers when he is no experience in this, and with pedigrees that are not go-to's for this sort of work. His pedigrees are pet meant....oversized, fluffy German Shepherds meant to please a pet owner's eye but who do not exactly lure those interested in working a dog or believe a GSD should look like a GSD.

I don't have anything against a pet bred program, done right. Daniel the Spaniel is that. He has ghastly type (darned cute though, lol!), but his breeder, who normally specializes in field bred Labs (who are nationally titled), has a childhood love for the old school Cocker temperament, so she has had the occasional litter through the years trying to breed back to that. She qualifies on all the above criteria, making her true intentions easy to clarify. This guy just seems like yet another BYB, with a lot of slick sell and no substance.

Edited by author Sat May 25, '13 9:39am PST

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Augusta,- CGC, RN

Such a Good Dog!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 25, '13 11:51am PST 
Interesting Tiller, I notice on Rosehall's site they sell pups for what he's proposing to sell his pup's for . . .. seems like he's shooting the moon, like my first pups will be THAT good.

But also Rosehall indicates that if a buyer doesn't spay/neuter they won't give them full registration OR they have to pay a significant surcharge . . ..



Is that common? And is there any easy way for a breeder to maintain control over whether someone fails to neuter, fails to agree to the breeder's terms and goes ahead and breeds . . ..

Maybe he's using "ethical" talk and lack of interest in titling to dodge not being able to register the pups?

He did not so deftly dodge whether he had whelped any litters . . .. with his cute comment, "you say I've neither whelped a litter and am breeding 2 year olds--I don't see how I could be doing both . . ."

I'm amazed at the audacity of a guy to talk about his "ethical" breeding program when he hasn't had a single pup yet! eek Maybe the article should be retitled, "I am a hypothetical breeder" .. . . If only he would stick to his imaginary kennel, that might be his greatest contribution to the breed.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat May 25, '13 12:50pm PST 
That surcharge thing, even when all other stuff is good, definitely loses my respect for a breeder. MONEY should not be the difference whether someone breeds or not.

I have little doubts he paid the surcharge confused The other breed I know he has dealt with....well, first, huge credit going to the ex-Dogster-with-a-Vlcak we all know and love, who rooted that info for me with her super sleuth ways, as once my radar went up and I went to his site, I thought I was totally screwed from proving my hunch as he lists untraceable dog info there! But at any rate, Lava, the other dog we were able to uproot, comes from THIS kennel. She is ridiculously elusive when it comes to her location. No reference there, and if you look at the comments section, every time someone asks, she doesn't answer? shrug So THAT sure sounds on the up and up, eh?

Generally, all puppies get sold on speuter contracts and/or limited registration, unless graded show (in which case they go to "proven" homes, where it is clear the person will show the dog). Some breeders hold back papers entirely until there is a proof of speutering. With a GOOD breeder, their breeding potential (which would be mean show quality) dogs go on co-owns. Good breeders are extremely reluctant to sell a show quality puppy to someone they don't know.

Very established breeders who like the wins very often with simply give a top dog to someone they know. Very often co-owns go free or very low on price. At times breeders will charge more for show, but the difference is that show prospect doesn't get sold into a pet home, vs the "surcharge" dog, who can be sold to show or pet home, the difference between full or limited reg being the price and not the home itself. Enter the BYB! laugh out loud

What good breeders care about is that the dogs with the good potential go to people who will advance their line....compete with them, and can be trusted to breed with discretion. They'd never simply charge a higher price that would choose a dog's fate, full or limited registration. THAT is unethical on its very basis!!!!!

Royalair actually is the leader in the types of dogs he breeds. They usually are going in on co-owns with the dogs they will allow to be bred in the future. Rosehall actually has Royalair pedigrees quite a bit. Royalair, on the other hand, will co-own, which allows them to breed more and keep their line strong. If he had done things right and perhaps approached them with a possible mentorship and co-own in mind, none of this nonsense would have happened. They actually scan actual copies of registrations and health certs on individual dog pages, and are frequently warning about not trusting breeders of oversized "old fashioned" GSDs who insist they health test. Where's the proof? That's what they'd say, and further say that most who say and not prove are full of it. That is a pretty big deal to them, as despite the size of their dogs, they have an uncommon number of OFA Excellent dogs. She is a particularly strong vanguard against Shiloh or King Shepherd breeders, who can utilize these dogs without papers. If she means what she says (no reason for me to think not, she has a good rep), she will actually pursue a lawsuit if she has to if a King or Shiloh person ends up with one of her dogs.

So that's a difference between two worlds, ethical and not wink

Edited by author Sat May 25, '13 12:55pm PST

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Toto, CD, RN, CGC

We don't do- doodles!!!
 
 
Barked: Sat May 25, '13 3:00pm PST 
Those that can, do. Those that can't talk the big talk!
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Jasper

High-flyin' Pup!
 
 
Barked: Thu May 30, '13 9:52pm PST 
Uggggh, I am so embarrassed to have been taken in at first by this guy. It makes me really REALLY worry about finding the right breeder for my next dog. frown When my search starts in earnest, I hope dogsters aren't too annoyed by my relentless questions, as I'm seriously questioning my ability to find an excellent breeder on my own. frown
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Delta

Play hard, sleep- well.
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 28, '13 7:38pm PST 
Where are the dog's pedigrees? He should at least show their pedigrees on his site. BYB?
This guy hasn't had a SINGLE puppy yet. But, he is planning TWO litters for this fall. A good breeder only breeds one litter at a time, so that each litter can get individual attention. His dogs do not meet AKC standards, so I don't understand why is guy is breeding. His dogs have colors that NO AKC registered german shepherd should haves-at least a responsibly bred one.

shock
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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Fri Jun 28, '13 8:12pm PST 
His dogs have colors that NO AKC registered german shepherd should haves-at least a responsibly bred one.

Black and tan saddle backs? I'm not defending the guy by any means, but what's wrong with the color of his dogs, exactly?
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Delta

Play hard, sleep- well.
 
 
Barked: Sat Jun 29, '13 6:31am PST 
I just did a little snooping and found out that he is planning to breed a dog that is 7 MONTHS old. Also, on his post on Dogster, he said that this dog had crytorchidism. So he said that he got his dog neutered. That is really suspicious.

These are the exact words from the article:

"We haven't been in this business long, and we've already been tested, when we discovered that one of our younger dogs, Charcoal, had crytorchidism -- meaning he had a retained testicle that did not fall into place. We had a choice: We could have had the retained testicle removed and tried to breed him, or we could have had him neutered.

But an unneutered dog with crytorchidism has a very high risk of getting cancer. Moreover, it is a genetic flaw that could be passed on to his puppies.

I'm certain that there are many breeders out there who would readily breed the dog. But we chose the most ethical path possible. Even though we had invested a significant amount of money and effort into Charcoal, we had him neutered."

And here is what he posted on his site:

" As Long Haired German Shepherd Breeders in Alaska, we are SUPER excited to have him with us. He's sitting next to me while I type and he is 7 months old and already 100 pounds! One of the hardest parts about being a German Shepherd Breeder is knowing that our puppies are going to have to leave our kennel.
It is always a joy when a new puppy comes in and Charcoal was everything we hoped for in a new puppy.
We're very, very, very excited to have Charcoal in our breeding program. He has a magnificent personality and pure heart and is the exact dog we were looking for as German Shepherd Breeders. He wants to please. He will breed with Lava and make some glorious long-haired puppies."
Weird.
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Delta

Play hard, sleep- well.
 
 
Barked: Sat Jun 29, '13 7:30am PST 
My cousin breeds german shepherds, and she told me that a purebred German Shepherd should always have a black mask. She has been breeding for 10+ years and has never seen an purebred german shepherd with a tan face. Ever.
smile-Delta
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