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*****DO NOT BUY FROM KEYSTONE PUPPIES******

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Twister

forever loved
 
 
Barked: Sat Feb 9, '13 10:55am PST 
Ah, so Twist and I can go in at night (I'll wear black to match), scout things out first, make sure they are there and oblivious...then ya'll can come in and back up the truck...dog walk

Pretty sure there is a breeder somewhere near my parent's property. I keep hearing a ton of barking (esp at certain times) but can't see where it could be coming from because of the woods, and I probably shouldn't cross the fence line (but I'm tempted, lol).
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat Feb 9, '13 11:41am PST 
There's also an overt concealing of addresses on the site and also, as noted, enough comments on the testimonials to where I know puppies are relocated onto the the home farm when someone is coming to pick up their puppy.

I admit having gotten some sick fascination watching the videos. I found some with kids with the puppies who were patting them oddly....like with a cupped hand? And some odd breed cap fascination at what breeds seem to hold up better. Golden puppies who still manage to be bubbly, vs the GSDs I put up.

I think a primary upsetting thing to me is to spend time on facebook there and basic web searches and how you can see the benefits and limitations of education, and it really backs up a gripe fest I have had for MANY years that promoting against puppies mills is NOT best served by showing the most hellish scenes (grossly matted, broken legs, eyes popping out, etc. during HS seizures). Plenty of mills are not THAT bad and leave the door open for someone to rationalize that mills less extreme are not mills. Some mills have dogs in pens, outside, in example.

I dealt with a pet store owner in RI, very nice man. Truly. He personally did his own inspections of his puppy sources. He would quarantine his own puppies, had weekly vet visits, and his puppy buyers were taken to a room where they watched educational films on puppy rearing and good ownership. He also had puppy classes held at his store. He was earnest. But it was very hard to explain to him why his breeders were still mills. Granted, they were better than a lot of these Amish are, but mills still, and he could not conceptualize. It's not as if I had drag down fights with him. I felt bad because he was a very nice man who couldn't grasp some critical points of why things were bad.

And on my internet searches, plenty of Keystone buyers who know better than to get from a pet store, and who truly do want to avoid mills, and are so easily swayed to believe that is not what they are doing.

We have this one end of education where pet stores are bad and mills are these places with deformed, matted dogs, and then the other end with "responsible breeder" protocols that are too complicated, and in some views controversial, even amongst the responsible breeders. Quite a few, in example, have more than one breed, may breed a good bitch multiple times, or are large in size.

We need to make it simpler.

1. Return clause in their sales contract.
2. Spay/neuter in their sales contract.
3. Health testing, as defined by the national breed club. This said because for all the different tests for different breeds, even we ourselves can get confused. Elbows, in example, aren't a particularly strong need in some breeds, but huge in others. I don't really care if elbows are done in Giants, but I know it's significant in Goldens....or I think it is laugh out loud I would have to check my list again wink

There really are two lines, in other words. The guidelines to separate the excellent from the fair responsible breeder, and those to seperate the mill or BYB from the not. And even my point #2, the spay/neuter, can get controversial. As to that definition. There is not agreement between the dog fancy and S/R. A lot of large dog breeders do not believe in early neuters. Which is their right. Many will withhold papers until proof of neuter is done. To some that is not enough, but that is a dividing line. Rescue typically/hopefully has a policy where speuters are done prior to placement, which is not compatible with many breeders' outlooks.

Really, the biggie is the return clause, and even THERE....well, you need to be educated. For many BYB contracts do have a return clause tied into a health problem. Then they will take the dog back and refund. Versus a more specific clause that for the life of the dog they will take the dog back. So being told of the need for a return clause, the novice sees the former and presumes all is well.

And there is yet ANOTHER complexity! Is it "will" or is it "you must." Meaning, does the breeder obligate themselves contractually to take the dog back at your discretion, or is the pet owner REQUIRED to return the dog rather than rehome? For there is another hot spot. When someone has paid $2,000 for a dog (not unheard of), some may not want to be blocked from resale. Or simply blocked from getting to approve of where their dogs goes. I personally would not sign a "I must"; only a "they will." Because you never know. If I had, say, a dog who for whatever reason turned out massively SSA and the dog had to go but I had a good hunch the breeder would euth the dog? There is no way I would sign a contract forcing me to return a dog. Ever. Which sort of foils S/R ideals.

So parameters are hard to set. And here we have the fallout, for a place where it is overt these are mills, where it is easily found out how many of these breeders have past run ins with the law, and yet even those meaning not to service mills end up duped by not having near the dog savvy or analytical skills that I do. And even with my savvy and skills, I see points of controversy and so much left open to interpretation.

Very depressing. shock
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Sat Feb 9, '13 1:00pm PST 
I have run into a few BYBs over the years who truly try to produce good pups. Health testing, vet checks, spay/neuter contracts and one or two litters every few years that are raised in a home with kids, cats, etc. People who put some 'breeders' I know to shame with the care they show their animals. It's a shame to see these mills continue when there are people out there who would love to do the right thing and simply need a good mentor.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sat Feb 9, '13 1:32pm PST 
There is a Cocker breeder like that I know. Only breeds pets, would never title. She just LOVES Cockers. And of course Cocker puppies, which are stinking adorable. She has usually three litters a year. She gets good stock, health tests, has a pretty extensive contract. One of her sales actually finished his championship, which is almost unfathomable as the breed is incredibly competitive with huge entries. Not an easy dog to finish by any means. She has absolutely no interest in showing, never uses outside males, I am not entirely sure how it could be said she is bettering the breed and clearly she does this for a very popular breed, and one heavy in rescue, too. I could nit pick, sure. But she doesn't do anything wrong on base levels, all her dogs are not simply house dogs but kept in full coat, which to me is mind blowing when you are talking twelve owned dogs. She just loves Cockers. Puppy buyers are more how she indulges herself, but in terms of her breeding practices, sales contract, etc., you can't really fault her. She had to be petitioned to lift the limited registration on the male that went on to be shown and finished in conformation. I think they specialed him.
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Sabi

When the night- closes in I will- be there
 
 
Barked: Sat Feb 9, '13 3:56pm PST 
There used to be a GSD guy around here who bred from his own import stock, never showed, bred his bitches every other year and had hips,eyes and elbows tested. Every single pup raised and handled by him to 12 weeks, in his house, ironclad contracts and if he didn't like you for any reason no pup. Said he liked having pups around but couldn't stand "prancy dancy stuff",and ribbons were something girls put in their hair. Funny old guy, loved his dogs.
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Ace

Mischief is my- middle name
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 12, '13 7:56pm PST 
I see contract provisions requiring a dog be returned to the breeder onerous. If you've gone to the trouble to find a legit responsible breeder, you should be responsible enough and caring enough to find a good new home for the dog, if absolutely necessary. What if you've moved out of state? Wouldn't you do just as well working with a local breed rescue organization to rehome your dog as you would with the original breeder in another state?

But this is coming from someone who won't buy from a breeder, and my rescue off the street that I was going to rehome is now my dog forever. So...
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Shiver Me- Timbers- "Charlie"

My Little Dog, a- heartbeat at my- feet.<3
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 12, '13 10:05pm PST 
Keep in mind Ace that many people ship their puppies from breeders in different states, and even different countries. Not to mention that a breeder can and likely would try to help you find someone close by who would be a good fit for the dog just as well before allowing it to go into a rescue situation. They do their best, however, to get a dog a good forever home and if for some reason, circumstance says otherwise later, giving the breeder first right of refusal to find the pup a home just shows me how committed a breeder is to their dogs. Rescues are already filled to the brim with dogs and what they can handle - would you really want your breeder dogs adding to that? Most reputable breeders don't and make the effort otherwise.

I'd also like to note that if you're responsible and caring enough - MOST owners that are, would go to the ends of the Earth to find their dogs the perfect rehome, and if not, the next best thing, whether that's returning to the breeder, or getting the breeders help in finding that dog a good home. I know if I had to, I'd drive across the country to set my dog up in a home that was just as good, if not better than mine. But unless I die, my dogs aren't going anywhere.
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UCH Onyx TT,- CGC

Do you even- lift?
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 12, '13 10:48pm PST 
First right of refusal means the breeder has the first right to the dog should the owner decide they can no longer keep it, but it doesn't mean the dog has to be returned to the breeder if other arrangements that are satisfactory to them are made.

I also think there's a fallacy in your logic that anyone who buys from a responsible breeder is they themselves responsible. I've had plenty of people ask me what breeder I bought Onyx from, and I certainly didn't know if they were stellar dog owners or not when I told them. With Google, forums, word of mouth, ect., it's not that hard to stumble onto a good breeder. Of course any reputable breeder is going to do their best to place their dogs with the great homes, but even the best screening processes can "fail". The first right of refusal at the very least gives a buyer who might otherwise leave their dog at the shelter a better alternative.

Like Charlie said, to me it shows the breeder actually cares about what happens to their dogs after they sell them. The willingness to take back any dog they sold, at any time, for any reason says a lot about a person.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Tue Feb 12, '13 11:08pm PST 
First right of refusal does allow a breeder to minimally stay apprised and continue to track their dog. I think in a perfect world BOTH parties would want to continue to care about and look after the welfare of the dog. Returns to breeders aren't always the best answers, particularly for larger breeds where the dog could go from house dog to kennel. Other times, it is the perfect place. Very often, breeders can help spread the word and help you to find an answer. Many answers. The only thing that gives me funk, as a puppy buyer, is if I give up my own rights if I decide to rehome my dog. Obviously, that's never happened and I highly doubt it ever would, but if I can't keep the dog for whatever reason, I would want a contract that obligates the breeder yet doesn't box me in.

That's complex, for it may be of interest to some of you that I know of no breeder who has been established for an extended time who doesn't have some incident of a dog of theirs getting dumped in some way, despite the fact that their contract ensured the buyer they would take the dog back. For whatever reason, some people are determined to circumvent the breeder, but the alternative....to contractually obligate a person to return a dog to his breeder....may not always be in the best interest of that animal. It's a pretty hard thing to find a perfect balance on with those two equations.
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Addy, CGC

Let's go for a- walk!
 
 
Barked: Wed Feb 13, '13 9:43am PST 
Addy and Dora's breeder's contract requires that if I cannot keep them, I either return them to her or rehome them with her approval. They don't automatically have to go back to her, but she wants to know where they're going, to who, and that it's a good home.

I've introduced her to the friend that I would want to have them if anything happened to me, and she approves. But if I could not keep them, and my friend couldn't take them, I would be very, very comfortable with them going back to their breeder, who is the wonderful woman without whom I would not have them.
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