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pitbulls are not bad dogs

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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Maggie

Spazzy Dalish- Doggie
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 3, '12 3:41pm PST 
I don't think calling it "aggression" is the best way to describe what APBTs are.

"Aggression" makes one think of "anger." That is NOT what the "aggression" in terriers really is. To terriers, fighting is FUN. They LIKE doing it, it's like a form of play for them. It's NOT a hatred of other dogs; it's something they do when they are amped up and excited.

One thing I've noticed with game-bred pit bulldogs, is there are generally okay when just laying around with other dogs. But, if they walk into a room and see two dogs excitedly play-fighting, they will jump right in the middle and start REALLY fighting.

It's very much a drive thing, and NOT a "I hate other dogs" thing. They like other dogs, it's just that scrapping is their preferred version of fun.
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 3, '12 4:03pm PST 
But again, I see a big difference. One is that you can channel that DRIVE into something worthwhile such as sch. And you just admitted to that you don't consider it actual human aggression, so is it really comparable?

And the DRIVE that roots itself in dog aggression IS, quite often actually, turned into more productive things for these dogs.

Can't lose the DA unless you lose some portion of the drive, sorry to say.

Why must we keep something in a breed that we need to train around?

Lets turn that back around: Why breed something like the willingness to bite a human being if we have to train around that?

Are you starting to see my point?

Not wanting to put the footwork into training a dog is LAZINESS, and expecting your dog to be perfect without any work at all is unreasonable. A dog like Mulder probably WOULD have bitten someone, badly, had he not been properly trained and socialized. Same goes for pits. You don't IGNORE the dog's natural drives, or deny that they are there, you WORK with them and from that craft what you want out of a dog.

If you take the same dog, clone him, and put him into two scenarios: one where his owner is a lazy jerk who doesn't dedicate the appropriate time and work into rearing his dog correctly, and one where the dog is socialized extensively, worked with properly and trained correctly, you would likely be AMAZED at what a difference it can make. Scenario A produces a frothing, uncontrollable dog who will snap at and lunge at other dogs, while Scenario B produces a lovely, well behaved dog who can walk in a crowded park full of other dogs and be nothing but a perfect gentlemen.

Lazy, lazy, LAZY attitudes towards these dogs!

Once again, why not go after Kerry Blues, or BRTs, or Giants, or Akitas or Bullmastiffs with these same arguments??? Maybe because people ACKNOWLEDGE that dogs like this require a tremendous amount of work and AREN'T suited for your typical dog owner?

Why should pits be so different? I'm starting to agree that all this "pro-pit" propaganda HAS done the breed some harm, considering its trying to change national opinions on this dog towards "super easy lovable pet suited for ALL people!". WRONG! And the sooner people realize that, the better off the breed is.

ETA:
I also think its a little presumptuous to call a breed trait like this a "flaw". It is something that you (general you) personally do not like... that does not make it a "flaw" on the breed.

Some people don't like that GSDs shed... that is not a flaw that the breed has, that is something that an individual does not care for.

I, personally, don't have any desire to own a breed who tended towards DA. I think pits (and American Bulldogs, and Cane Corsos, and Neos, etc) are FINE dogs, have a lot of characteristics that I love love love and that make them fantastic animals. But for me, for what I look to achieve with my dogs, the DA just isn't suiting. I ACKNOWLEDGE this, am fine with this, and simply move on to a breed that does suit my needs. I don't parade around calling them flawed and petition for a massive overhaul in the breed's character!

Edited by author Tue Apr 3, '12 4:19pm PST

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Trigger

*Blackdog*
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 3, '12 4:34pm PST 
"Coming from a herding-dog perspective, I hate it when people dumb down perfectly good breeds just to make them better family companions."

You're speaking my language with that.

Coming from a bird-dog perspective, I hate it when people dumb down a perfectly good breeds just to make them better family companions too wink



I hear what Mulder is saying too. I think there are two different camps as far as that is concerned. One being the purists who value every difference that distinguishes breeds, and others being the ones that scratch their heads and question what's the point?

I'm a purist. My 9 year old daughter sitting here next to me however read the title and had a lot of questions. At the end she concluded what's the point -BUT- she also fails to see the point in a dog herding sheep, or being inclined to hunt vermin. She understands the role of a bird dog because we have them and she validates there is purpose in that trait, but this is proof (to me at least) that an individuals personal preferences and experiences shouldn't dictate what a breed should be.


It's just too big of a slippery slope to me. Alter the entire temperament of a breed for convenience sake what's that to stop others from considering doing the same to others? And then following through? I see so many breeds that's already been done to and I think it's a disgrace. Retrievers that are loafs with no desire to retrieve, guardian breeds who are fearful of the unknown instead of assertive, sighthounds that have zero desire to chase...and so many owners of these breeds think that's GREAT. If it doesn't fit into their lifestyle they think wow, jackpot! When in all actuality that should be considered SAD.
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Sanka

The ground is my- newspaper.
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 3, '12 7:13pm PST 
Why breed something like the willingness to bite a human being if we have to train around that?

Sorry to say, but I'm quite confused lol.

I thought you used the willingness to bite a human and used that to your advantage in your work with Mulder.thinking

As opposed to pit bull breeders never using the willingness to attack other dogs as much of a tool for training. At least, I don't see how that particular trait sticks.

I get that you believe the DA side is so integral that removing it may soften the breed beyond recognition. I just disagree.big grin

Once again, why not go after Kerry Blues, or BRTs, or Giants, or Akitas or Bullmastiffs with these same arguments?

Because this is a thread about pit bulls.smile And it's safe to say I have zero experience with any of those breeds.

I also think its a little presumptuous to call a breed trait like this a "flaw". It is something that you (general you) personally do not like... that does not make it a "flaw" on the breed.

It's not a personal dislike. It's more that I view it as completely unnecessary for today's standards. I don't believe it's an integral part to a pittie. I don't believe it is doing the dogs or the people any favors. I see it as more harm than good. No benefit, potential downfall. That's MY PERSONAL view on it. Obviously, everything varies. That's why I call it flawed.
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Tue Apr 3, '12 8:32pm PST 
I trained Mulder how to properly express drives that otherwise could have been very dangerous.

People DO do this with pits- because, yet again, dog aggression is the result of a particular combination of drives and breed characteristics.

I really don't know how else to better explain this to you.

Dog aggression isn't just this one "thing" that pits have... its not a drive, its not something you use. Its something that is a RESULT of multiple types of OTHER drives and characteristics. THOSE are what you use- and getting rid of THOSE is the problem here.

If I must, I will go over it one.last.time.

Lets break the pit down by drives. Most of where he comes from is a prey mentality. The drive to chase and catch. Think of this as the driving force behind the dog, the thing which starts the ignition. This drive is utilized to make the dog move forward and to keep him happy during his work, as prey is primal and one of the less stressful drives a dog can be worked in (as apposed to something like defensive drive, which puts much more pressure on the dog and is not something a dog "enjoys" strictly speaking). When engaged in prey, the dog is not "thinking", he is "acting"- he isn't planning out his next move, he's just GOING. Prey can be a somewhat reckless drive in that respect, that when not tapped into properly, can make a dog seem unruly and disorganized.

Consider also that the pit is still a bully breed. While they are very handler biddable, much more so than most bullies, I do feel they fall within the realm of "dominant" when dealing with other dogs. It is a controlling personality type, that does not like to be pushed or challenged on what he considers "his" terms. That's a very BULLY thing, and something pits certainly have. This fraction of their character lends itself to a very forward, upfront dog who doesn't hold anything back. A dog who's willing to walk into a room and say "I'm about to give you 110%, so stand back". And biddable though they be, its that tough-headed "dominant" side to them that makes them so charming- they will run circles around you, and they will do it with a smile on their face! It is also part of the driving force for the next thing that I'm about to touch on.

That's the bulldog side, now lets look at the terrier. For that we have fight drive. I use "fight" here more in the sense that its used for in protection work, and not necessarily to describe the physical action of fighting. Its the dog's willingness to stay on something, to stay with whatever its doing and not stop until its told to. This is VERY pit, very terrier, very deeply ingrained, and one of the breed's more admirable characteristics. In dog fighting, the dog who fights to the death is considered a very good dog. Within the world of sane, normal people, that drive is what makes them so enjoyable in things like weight pull- they WILL keep going, even with an unimaginable weight on their shoulders, and will not stop until you've pulled them out. Or in things like hog hunting, they WILL go after that pig, even at great personal risk to themselves, until its been caught. A dog can be gored with the tusk of a wild pig and still stay on that hog until his master comes to relieve him- THAT'S saying something.

Combine those things and take a step back, look at what it creates. You can certainly have a dog with a lot of prey drive who does great with other dogs- look at Labs, Pointers, pretty much any of the hunting breeds. You can also have dogs with a lot of fight drive that can be plenty social- GSDs are the best example, Rotts and perhaps Dobermans can be used as well. The bulldog thing, well, that's a little sketchier. Certainly there are more social bulldogs, the English probably being the best example (though even they can be somewhat scrappy).

But when you mix all of those things together, you have a very chase-and-catch dog with a serious a-type personality that WILL NOT back down from a challenge, period. And that lends itself to.......... ding ding ding, you guessed it, a dog who is very scrappy with others.

Take your pick on which of those things you'd like to take out of the equation- certainly it can be done, and the result being a much more dog social dog. But say goodbye to SOMETHING that makes this breed so unique, and so admirable, as all if those traits do.

FYI, I'd also like to take a moment and point out one other thing-
The GSD, a breed who does not tend towards dog aggression as a rule, and at WORST SSA. When bred to have extreme amounts of prey drive (incorrect for the breed), with a ton of dominance and fight drive to back it up... you do see higher instances of dog aggression. Working kennels produce it more than show kennels, and I think that's pretty telling for this discussion. That you can take an otherwise neutral breed, muck around with his drives enough and CREATE a new characteristic in the dogs you produce.
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` S ᴛ ᴏ ɴ ʏ

*KISSES!*
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 4, '12 2:07am PST 
Yes. I agree. Pitbulls are not bad dogs. They are great Family Dogs. Yes, you might have some people running their Children across the Street when you walk your Pitbull down the block. News Articles and Stories change the entire Image of Pitbulls. Yeah, your Pitbull might be buff and agressive look, but again it might be a gentle giant. I want you to explain to those people that Pitbulls are harmless.
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Jackson Tan

Lad about town
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 4, '12 2:33am PST 
" I'm starting to agree that all this "pro-pit" propaganda HAS done the breed some harm, considering its trying to change national opinions on this dog towards "super easy lovable pet suited for ALL people!". WRONG! And the sooner people realize that, the better off the breed is. "

BRAVO to that, Mulder. Too right! applause People who fall for that line are ill-prepared for the DA tendencies of the pitbull and become a danger to themselves and other dogs as a result. They don't know how to HANDLE the issue when it inevitably crops up. Misinformation is dangerous. Loving a breed truly is admitting to all their tendencies, whether good or 'bad', and working with what you have. If you can't deal aspects of their character and breeding, then it's time to look at another breed that you can.
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Missy

Miss- Pig!
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 4, '12 4:38am PST 
Well, all terriers to some greater extent have DA tendencies, not just the Pitbull.

Talking of the smaller terrier types, they had to be feisty and they had to be brave and quite cocky because the line of work they was used for required strong nerves. They were also bred to work alone in most respects and therefore have quite an independent attitude. All these traits combined result in a dog that does not have the instinctive need to get along with all dogs.

Some purebred terriers have been "dumbed" down to make them more desirable as pets and this HAS had an impact on other traits. So while you might get a more biddable pet, the prey drive is lost and/or the dog loses the strong nerves they was required to have, resulting in a more nervous terrier that fits in with family life better and is less head strong. So really they're terriers in name but not always by nature.

I know nothing about Pitbulls but i can understand the desire to keep them as they are naturally rather than lose certain aspects of the dog that makes them what they are.
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Angel Lou

Everybody wants- to be a...DOG!- not a CAT
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 4, '12 6:21am PST 
I am just going to point this out that I am a very proud pit bull owner! I absolutely love the breed and have been around many.

I do honestly think that some pit bull owners are in denial. I think the reason this is, is they are fighting so hard to help the breed, that they are focusing so hard on giving the breed a good rep. But actually are giving the breed a bit of a worse rep, because they are claiming something that is historical fact, isn't the truth. When it is...as much as we don't want to hear it. Pit bulls were bred for fighting by crossing the Staffie with the English bulldog. They do naturally have DA in them, as that is what they were bred for. What I don't get is, one of the arguements helped in making the pit bull reputation better is the fact they were bred to attack other animals NOT humans. So, I don't understand why responsible pit bull owners are trying to deny that shrug

Now, I am not saying that EVERY pit has DA don't get me wrong. Some can be fabulous with other dogs. They can be very submissive in fact. Just I am saying DA is in their genes, whether we like it or not.

People who try to deny that Pit bulls do not have natural dog aggression. Its kinda like saying a terrier doesn't have a naturally higher prey drive them some breeds. Take the Jack Russel terrier for example, they are prone to having DA, SA, and just plan animal aggression. They tend to be pushy dogs. People who try to deny that, they aren't very well educated with the breed. Whether, we like that trait or not, we cannot lie about it, otherwise we are putting the breed we love and adore at risk.

I don't really agree with the fact that Pits arn't Nanny dogs. I think I read that somewhere, maybe not, if not I apologize. They are great with children, and are known as the Nanny dogs of England.shrug
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Wed Apr 4, '12 6:46am PST 
Wow, a lot going on here. I think a lot of the problem is 'lack of information' -- maybe not misinformation per se. The shelters I know are even loathe to describe a dog as mixed with Pit Bull. 'Lab mix' is a common title. I'm one of those idiots who never heard of DA in Pit Bulls (or Cattle Dogs, either) and was unpleasantly surprised. Training has only gotten me so far, and has worked better with my ACD/Pit/unknown mix than my Lab/Pit mix. Perhaps this is because the Lab/Pit, Sonny, had a rougher life and was one and 1/2 when I got him. My ACD mix was younger, and responded better to extensive socialization.

But we're at an impasse here at helping the masses of Pitties in shelters. They are generally promoted as an easy dog. Perfect for first time owners and such. Well, when your puppy matures into DA, the first time owner is sol. Not that many are willing to up their game. It's enough if they don't suddenly think they have a 'bad' dog. BADRAP is excellent about explaining the characteristics of Pitties, but I only started reading that after having Pit mixes. I wasn't looking for 'project' dogs myself -- I'm more into dealing with gundog prey drive -- but I deal as best I can. I'm sure a lot of owners do a better job than I do, but I bet a lot do a worse job, too. thinking
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