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Amusing Article on Dogster Blog Today!

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 10:33am PST 
Personally, I, like many others, am horrified by the Merle-Merle breeding, and have read every article I can get my hands on, including the Border Wars blog articles (although I find him a little over the top at times, he isn't on this subject). I have a special interest in blind and deaf dogs, actually.

But who sets the trends really? I'm not a conformation person, I'm a field person, which rules out many groups for me, so I don't know. I know lap dogs have their place in this world, but I have little knowledge about them besides what I can read of their standards and illnesses.
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Princesse- Lily CGN

I am RoyalChi!
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 10:59am PST 
Did someone say 'lap dog'?big grin I did not even watch the show *gasp*laugh out loud I have only ever been to one dog show in my life so far. I have , however, seen some Chis that look like they might topple over in a strong wind. I have also seen the old photos of the earlier Chi standards and I must say I like them much bettersmile
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 11:04am PST 
I'm not on Collies, so I knew nothing about this prior to the previous thread on Westminster that brought it to my attention.

And I've been in a rage spiral over it ever since, and I don't see myself coming down anytime soon. Its like the final straw... what pushed my already poor opinion of the fancy at large from "this bothers me" to "mission critical".

ANYONE who can stand up and say that the AKC or that shows like Westminster are blameless needs to have their head checked. That that dog was even allowed to WALK INTO THE RING is proof enough of what a disgusting, downward spiral the dog fancy has taken. No minor bits of improvement here or there can make up for something like this.

Malachy is no different to me. I bet that Collie had a nice expression too- I mean, it made it to Westminster, not to mention the group ring. SOMEONE out there must have liked that dog, and all of its cousin who also made it to their CH and were sired by a MM stud.

I don't give two spits how well that dog shows. At some point people have to put their foot down and say "this is wrong". YES there is blame in Westminster. YES there is blame in any standard that allows such a thing, and YES there is blame in the breed club and with all of its breeders and judges that allows such things to pass.

Edited by author Wed Feb 22, '12 4:38pm PST

Approved by forums moderator

Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 11:11am PST 
I believe the Aussie breed club has a very different take on merle-merle breeding so good for them.

The Collie breeders who did this sicken me.
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 11:44am PST 
Westminster is promoting the top flight show dogs. Show dogs, when you get to the specials level, is a function. Think not? Then take your dog to a show, try and show him, have him make a plum fool of you, and then look around at the show grounds, the atmosphere, and compare it to THIS While we are afraid of a little commotion giving our own dogs issues.....that's a top flight show dog. Who can just chill in sheer madness. I have seen snark that the handler said Malachy was saving energy for his ring time. People laugh and say a dog wouldn't know, how STUPID, but guess what? They DO! And they love it. When they go in the ring, they know how to turn it on. They know what they are doing, and they are damned good at it. I myself was pretty "pooh pooh" about the whole thing until I met Hatter, past BIS GSD, and the dog was not only a rock star, but could suck you into a funnel like no other dog. If you put his persona on the ugliest twelve year old shelter mutt you have ever seen....that dog would have adopted in an hour wink SHOW DOG laugh out loud

And that's what Westminster is. It is promoting the sport....and it is a sport given what else gets called sport nowadays.....of showing dogs. This isn't the classes level, where you finish champions. That's a different deal. This is the opportunity for either people to own their own "sports team" for far less money and far less hassle, or, for those with ambition and stars in their eyes to compete against legends, which they like. It's a fun, obsessed community affair, full of cliques, gossip, laughs, crazy stories and a rather invigorating bohemian lifestyle.

And then there is the OTHER world. The world of breed clubs who fashion these breeds, write standards, coach judges, peer pressure their inner circle. That's the world people are mad at, and yet never gets the blame. That is where it goes wrong. And equally to the AKC or KC, who don't want to play hardball and enforce limitations, restrictions, have reviews, etc. As far as the big dog shows, though, it's about top judges in the industy judging the top flight specials in the industry and being a gala event for those who devote their life to the sport. You can have an extreme breed like a Peke win, but the dog himself isn't extreme....he is to the standard. Which is what the judge is supposed to judge. Don't like the dog, then change the standard. Want to get mad? Then target blame where it truly rests....on the national breed club. Or consider the AKC/KC as needing to be more strongarmed in what they demand of breed clubs. No one thinks the Peke isn't extreme. Plenty of dog people are EQUALLY disgusted by the extremes of the breed, but none of them think that Malachy isn't an outstanding show dog. There is a big difference.

If we are to talk about problems, fantasize about what changes need to be made and yet not limit the potential of the all breed show concept....which is heavily important to strengthen breeds by drawing in new supporters who would not see them otherwise (that is why so many breeds eventually cave....like the Tibetan Mastiff, who hit an impasse and really needed better promotions, better numbers).....then that is where the problem rests. Arguing about the wrongs of Westminster putting up a Pekingese is ridiculously pointless. It did exactly what it purports it does....be a gala event for the top flight show dogs in support of the fancy that is in love with the sport. For every crazy extreme Peke, there is a rather undisturbed Great Pyr. It is not Westminster that causes this, but the people on the breed itself. Pyr people swore to preserve the dog of the mountains and alter him minimally. The Peke had no such vow. They are still crazy companionable and have that great arrogance the breed is famed for....that has been preserved....but a lot of the structure has gone haywire. Per the standard. The people who have penned it, the people who have directed judges how to interpret it, are the problem.

Edited by author Wed Feb 22, '12 4:39pm PST

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Nicky

it's my party &- i'll cry if i- want to
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 11:55am PST 
Like Mulder, the double merle was the straw for me as well. I've defended dog shows saying these are responsible breeders and yadda yadda yadda, but at that point they should KNOW better than to breed double merles. It is one of the BIGGEST no-no's in breeding there is, and yet here it is being REWARDED. What the hell are we supposed to think?? This is pretty much what I did when I found out about that.

Those old school Peke's would be considered a poorly bred product of a BYB today.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 12:14pm PST 
I agree that most of the blame lies with the breed clubs. It took forever to let the LUA Dals in, for example. Some breed clubs are better than others.

But who causes the trends to change? The judges or who? thinking Look at this former championship Golden: Speedwell Pluto
Does he bear any relationship to the heavily boned and coated Goldens of the AKC show ring? The ones who swim slowly..... At least there's a split in the Golden breeds, as in BCs. I don't consider that too much of a shame, I consider it protective at this point.
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Mulder

Spooky Mulder
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 12:16pm PST 
Tiller, would you really absolve Westminster for letting that Collie in?

Yeah its an AKC problem, but if these big sanctioned shows gave a damn, they wouldn't pussyfoot over these issues and LET DOGS LIKE THAT ENTER.
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Dr. Watson

Not a wiener- dawg!
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 12:43pm PST 
Or is it the breed club's fault?thinking

Ultimately, it IS the breeder's fault....
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Tiller- (Skansen's- Ira in the M

I DO Exist...To- Drive You Batty
 
 
Barked: Sun Feb 19, '12 1:00pm PST 
Mulder....read the below for any further info/clarification. But to answer your question (which implies something I never stated, nor never would, by the by) directly....I don't need to absolve anyone from anything that was not their responsibility. Westminster exists as a gala event for the top specials in the country. No less and no more. That is their "job" and anything more would be taking liberties that are not theirs to take....to scrutinize the pedigree and background of every entrant. Individual entrants are not to be scrutinized as to their backgrounds, connections, etc. It is the dog on the day to be judged, which is how dog shows work. Now on the CONTRARY, I do not absolve the breed club for condoning the practice. That lays at their doorstep. Where it belongs. It is their responsibility to define what is a correct and acceptable example of their breed. That was one of the top flight Collies in this country, his double merle sire one of the top sires of his generation, who has sired many champion offspring. He is a dog the BREED embraces. Totally unacceptable, but it is the breed who is promoting him, and it is right on their doorstep that this problem rests. That there has been such success with him will only encourage continued double merle breedings in the future.

In terms of the double merle breedings and what responsibility for this is on the AKCs shoulder, this can be talked about pointlessly or intelligently. It has long been a debate in the dog world, the principle issue around which something like that circles.

Can something akin to the AKC prohibit the registration of a dog? I am of the camp that believes the answer to that lies with a provision that breed clubs submit the required health testing for their breed, and that submission of such records is required for registration. It's a frustration that we are so far from that. But certainly if the breed clubs feel health testing should be done (which it does), they need the character to insist upon it. Which would lend greater value to the "AKC registered" moniker, whereby the consumer and the world can know your dog is "quality" because it comes from health cleared parents. This would of course, too, cause a problem to BYBs, making their dogs only registerable by an inferior registry. Seems to solve many problems, all at once. Healthier dogs, a far easier manner to "certify" breeders, a big problem for the BYBs, who now have dogs unregisterable by the "quality" organization.

Certainly the sport could still continue under that premise. The bugger to solve would be money, for of course registrations would be down and the organizational might that is the AKC would suffer, and all the health grants and legislative lobbying that goes with it.

The AKC does matter for those reasons, and then the bigger one still....hopefully explaining by example may help educate people as to the "whys." This is not to say the system is not flawed, but to example instead why the system is pursued.

An acquaintance of mine is one of the top Tibetan Mastiff breeders in the country and started with the breed back in the early 80's, when there were very few available. She did not originally want AKC recognition, but now she appreciates it, because things had gone as far as they could. A benefit of the AKC venue is that is a very fun, festive, showy occasion, and tends to draw average people on the street in. Far moreso than other show organizations. That is the primary reason where there is a vitalness to it, as the breeds themselves need newcomers to continue to strengthen the breed. It is very hard to gain diversity with just a small group of the same regulars. That is the fundamental benefit. The AKC, of course, benefits from new breeds coming in. Historically, they are very nervous to have too many restrictions tied in with being recognized for fear it would steer breed heads away. It's more that they are chicken than unconcerned by extremes.

A really great example is that the AKC has willingly welcomed changes in standards that allow uncropped dogs from cropped breeds to show and that phrase a responsibility to the judge to not differentiate the two. All hell would break loose, however, if they DEMANDED of cropped breeds this inclusion. Some breeds seek to preserve the cropped-ness of their dogs. Whether or not you agree with this, those who involve themselves have passionate opinions and would not take kindly to some big brother upending what they believe is historical and correct for their breed. The AKC, in the meantime, will try to keep everyone happy, not blocking anyone from allowing uncropped dogs in their standards, nor demanding it of anyone else.

That's the basic way the system works. Understanding it and seeing how changes can be worked into the system, how basic characters and charters need to change without losing what is good and right about the system, is an age old debate and one continued worth having.

If the AKC were to see two merle parents on a registration submission, could they ban it? Sure. Would the fancy want them to? No. Does this mean they are evil? Again, no. It is not that non Collie people are not horrified, but rather frown highly upon this practice in the breed. They want the breed club to change its position. What they do NOT want is the AKC deciding to ban all Dobermans registered with vWd. Or heavy linebreeding. The pepper & salt Giant Schnauzer was completly dying off until the emergence in Belgium of Adonis and Faust von der Havenstad, father and son who both doubled in the World Show. The breed knew they had to use these dogs heavily to generate interest the far more oft behind the bar pepper & salt, a very historical color that had low support due to poor type and soft temperament. Faust and Adonis had neither. Faust was a precious best friend to van der Havenstad's owner, but he released him to the U.S., where it is permissible to cross with blacks. So that diversity came in, and then there was heavy linebreeding back. Faust linebred very well, and the pepper & salt of today is very healthy. And in a renaissance. Won the national speciality, many breeders are picking them up. But of course none of this would have happened if the AKC had a policy of denying pedigrees. It was the responsibility of BREEDERS to know that such tight linebreeding was producing healthy dogs and to continue with it. Such action pulled the p&s out from the wreckage. It is examples like this as to why no breeders would want the AKC to scrutinize such matters. It would prefer to leave the breed's welfare reliant on those who dedicate their lives to it. Mostly, right decisions are made. Sometimes, alas, not. But those in the dog fancy would not want their ability to better their breeds thwarted by too strongarm a registration practice....to in effect be blocked and penalized due to a few bad actors (breed club wise), who are FAR from the majority in the dog fancy generally. The DPCA and its stand against white Dobermans is a great example of how liberal AKC policies or not, the breed club DOES have the power to suppress damaging trend. It comes down to the people.

So if it gets you that hot and bothered, why not write something to the national Collie club? THAT is doing something and letting your voice be heard where it truly matters. way to go Going right to the source of the problem.
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