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Havapoo/Poovanese?

If you are wondering what is the right dog for you, this is the place to be. In this introductory forum we talk about topics such as breed vs. mix, size, age, grooming, breeders, shelters, rescues as well as requirements for exercise, space and care. No question is too silly here. This particular forum is for getting and giving helpful, nice advice. It is definitely not a forum for criticizing someone else's opinion, knowledge or advice. This forum is all about tail wagging and learning.

  
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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 12, '12 2:29pm PST 
Tia - Yes, I agree that population size is important - and in regards to dogs, that depends on the breed. We don't even have to look at breeding dogs to know that there are certainly entire species in the world that have less total population (and less diversity in familial lines) in recovery efforts and captive breeding facilities, than even 1 single breed of dog.

You sorta copied and pasted my entire post in your first post on this thread, so I assumed you were also replying to my post when you started talking about the term 'hybrid'.. shrug

In regards to closed human populations - never claimed that they were of the same numbers as in some dog breeds (but who knows, there might be!), but that doesn't mean that genetic differences (and similarities in certain groups) aren't there and measurable. Notice I said landrace, which for the most part even in dogs don't/didn't have completely closed pools either. Here is an interesting book I've started to read that might be interesting:
"The History and Geography of Human Genes", Paolo Menozzi. In it, a lot of it is based on studies of relatively isolated, small tribal groups.

Does having a large population size, preclude the usage of the word "hybridization"?


I wrote the PennHIP sentence not implying that someone had actually said that on this thread, but to take that as a generalized concept and to apply it to the too-oft simplified benefits of outcrossing.
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Tia

Did you say- Ball?
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 12, '12 2:43pm PST 
Does having a large population size, preclude the usage of the word "hybridization"?

It depends on the population size and how homozygous the breeding individuals are.smile That is the point.

Breeding two mainly heterozygous individuals together to create another heterozygous individual will not create a 'hybrid'.

I wrote the PennHIP sentence not implying that someone had actually said that on this thread, but to take that as a generalized concept and to apply it to the too-oft simplified benefits of outcrossing"

I know and it IS that generalized concept that I find is the straw man that often comes up when the term 'hybrid vigor' is being discussed by those in dogs.

I really don't like that straw man argument as it is totally bogus and distracts from the truth. It is dishonest and therefore it gets under my skin.

The claim is, by those on the side of the argument that wants to poopoo the idea of hybrid vigor, that people claim 'hybrid vigor' takes care of all.

Then the argument is made that it doesn't.

No one claims 'hybrid vigor' guarantees anything. Arguing that hybrid vigor doesn't guarantee anything is a non-argument. It is a distraction from the point.

Most, if not all, know that already. I have yet to meet a single breeder or person who believes their dog is invisible from health maladies because it is a crossbreed.

That hybrid vigor cannot guarantee good health, however, does not mean there is no such thing as it applies to dogs.

It is very easy to state, if the point needs to be made, that hybrid vigor cannot guarantee good health. Claiming that it does not exist for dogs, however, discredits those making the claim.

At the same time please mention that health testing and line knowledge often is not enough to guarantee good health either as that is a belief I come across MUCH more often.

Edited by author Thu Apr 12, '12 2:56pm PST

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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 12, '12 3:12pm PST 
I agree with that, but at the same time I -have- seen multiple 'breeders' who claim ridiculous things about 'hybridization' or purebreds... absolutist statements. and to be sure, an overwhelming percentage of the people who are breeding mixed dogs, aren't doing it for 'hybrid vigor' any more than simply lip service.

For example, from a cross breeder whose main mixed breed stud male is the product of a (more than) half sister to half brother mating:
"THE PEOPLE of the world are not as STUPID as you 'BREEDERS' seem to think, they have tried your pure breds and are SICK over the PAIN the pure breeds are going through every single day of THIER lives...

WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR CRAPPY BREEDING, WE ARE MAD AS HELL AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY LONGER..."
thinking
http://schwarzkennels.tripod.com/

Edited by author Thu Apr 12, '12 3:21pm PST

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Tia

Did you say- Ball?
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 12, '12 3:20pm PST 
No they are not, but the key word is MOST.

Most that breed purebreds don't have a clue what they are doing either and simply play lipservice. Breeding in a closed gene pool knowing nothing is much more harmful for the dogs produced.

I could provide, easily, statement just as ignorant by many involved in breed clubs that are breeding.

So . . . I don't choose to pick sides and promote one kind of breeding over another by category of what is being produced.

Good breeding is good breeding, and bad is bad and there are equal offenders across the board.

That is totally besides the point however to the fact that the effect of hybrid vigor does exist when dog breeds are crossed.

Edited by author Thu Apr 12, '12 3:24pm PST

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y

dog-sitter in- charge.
 
 
Barked: Thu Apr 12, '12 3:28pm PST 
It's helpful (to both function of the breed and health) when it's done under controlled and knowledgeable methods, if a breed requires it. There's a reason why there's a Dalmatian outcross project, Boxer outcross project, etc. And in effect, it's simply breeding on 'more unrelated' (opposed to closely related) dogs. In terminology, though, I suppose 'outcross vigor' is pertinent. smile

ETA: although outcrossing (between lines or breeds) can be helpful, simply being a mixed dog also doesn't mean the dog has low COI. You'd have to know the pedigree of the dog to know that. I'd wager many a mixed breed dog, are just as related and 'inbred' than the next purebred.

Edited by author Thu Apr 12, '12 3:39pm PST

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Theodore- Jenkins- a.k.a.- WeeWee

I'm the Boss.
 
 
Barked: Fri Sep 28, '12 9:07am PST 
I JUST now seen this post, sorry it is sooooo late. Anywho, I DO have a Poovanese. He is such a wonderful son! He is real good with/for my brother as well who is handicap. This little guy, Theodore Jenkins, LOVES people and HAS to be around SOMEone. His breed CANNOT be left alone, they NEED constant companionship or they get sad. They are a cool breed in my opinion. They are the type of breed that, "as long as their owner is happy, they are VERY happy!" To me and my girlfriend, he is "our little boy" and our Moms even call him their "Grandson." His sister, "Shelby," is also a little treat! My buddy kept her though. They are also pretty easy to train. We are sooooo happy, and blessed, to have him. If you read this, and if you have any future questions, please feel free to ask me. snoopy
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